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A close reading on
help farming and reading through past updates on theft, I believe that pickpocketing has been left in an inequitable state compared to other money-making avenues in the game because it's being doubly governed by both farming limits and by income caps.
For example: If someone mugs an NPC they are governed by farming rules, remove that limitation makes any given mugger's NPC-derived income potential increase until there are no more NPCs left. However if someone steals from an NPC they are governed by farming rules and income caps, so if the farming rules are lifted their NPC-derived income can only increase to the income cap.
I believe the current set of overlapping rules is excessive and not equitable compared to other money making systems, and that the skill investment required should not make running crates for automated income a more optimal method. I believe the income cap alone is sufficient governance of income sources, since it can only ever equal what players derive from crates anyway, and that farming issues that apply to mugging don't apply equally to pickpocketing.
By 0x1mm at Sep 8, 2024, 10:23 PM
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And because I know any discussion about theft brings out the stealth-hating doomsayers, I would ask anyone who thinks this would be an issue to describe the worst case possible scenario they are imagining if only income cap limitations applied.
By 0x1mm at Sep 8, 2024, 10:42 PM
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Completely agree with this. I do think it's ideal to try and maintain a balance of some kind between targeting NPCs and PCs through self-policing, but since like you said it's already limited by the income cap anyway it never made much sense to me to have that additional rule in place.
By Nymphali at Sep 9, 2024, 10:43 AM
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NPC mugging is also governed by income caps.
By batko at Sep 9, 2024, 11:12 AM
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How exactly does mugging increment towards the weekly income cap?
By 0x1mm at Sep 9, 2024, 11:47 AM
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I will also point out that the wording of
help farming is more or less designed to curtail pickpocketing and enable mugging, unfairly in my view. Sanctioning one "big-ticket" item per week from NPCs can
only apply to mugging, and a ratio explicitly disadvantages pickpocketing which must make do with very small individual thefts, each from different sources, which forces pickpockets to target a much larger absolute number of players versus NPCs which makes the same income more laborious and more dangerous for the same or less monetary outcome.
Pickpocketing up to 6 to 12 players a week to stay on the right side of help farming while simply making crate income for the effort is an absurdly meagre and absurdly dangerous process for the level of skill it involves.
A player can take single high value items from NPCs at a rate of one a week without falling afoul of the farming rules and with the option to circumvent the income cap with those earnings and without scrutiny, and this has been explicitly allowed for while pickpocketing has become more and more restricted and more scrutinized from the 'same' rules and I think it shows more how biased the game's design is to very specific archetypes and styles of play are treated as the default.
If pickpocketing is to be governed by farming rules, on top of it's income cap, on top of it's other specific restrictions that apply only to it alone, there should at least be a clear avenue of big-ticket NPC pickpocketing that brings it in line with how mugging operates.
By 0x1mm at Sep 9, 2024, 12:09 PM
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I don't know how it works, I just know that if you try and get any money out of an NPC when you're at cap, you just don't. They do use the same commands to get the money at the end of the day, but even a dead NPC will not yield money if it was killed by a capped person.
Also, you can absolutely dip 'big ticket' items, it's not limited to muggings. You have to mug six to twelve players to match the same crate money you are talking about as a mugger as well, there's no difference there. Try mugging six players to justify mugging six NPCs, I have tried and it's basically a huge waste of time. And yes, it is enforced the same way, I used to have staff xhelp me and tell me to write a note of how many people my character has mugged to justify how many NPCs they get to mug.
The point of the farming rules is just to stop people from farming, it's not favorable to mugging, it's unfavorable in general.
By batko at Sep 9, 2024, 12:19 PM
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Not to double-post, but the funniest thing about mugging people to meet the quotas to justify help farming, is that they usually yield less than the NPCs, and mugging people is a lot more dangerous unless you are way too strong to be playing highwayman for 200c at a time.
By batko at Sep 9, 2024, 12:21 PM
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Saying
you can pickpocket big ticket items from NPCs is at a minimum burying the lede, if not lying by omission that this could be typical income in the same fashion. The difference in snap-kicking a weapon from an NPC and walking off and pickpocketing one that they happened to not be holding is a vast ocean.
I don't really believe you're in a position to even know what is favourable or unfavourable to theft because your perspective on the game and played archetypes is fairly narrow and you've said as much that you bear a grudge against theft in general.
By 0x1mm at Sep 9, 2024, 12:41 PM
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I am just giving you insight into how mugging works with farming rules as you clearly don't know, just as you think I don't know much about thievery, despite having played a thief before.
Mugging NPCs is governed by the income cap, which you didn't know until I brought that forward.
Muggers need to keep the same 'ratio' that dips do, as well.
Staff enforces farming rules over muggers very often.
NPCs do often have 'big ticket' items that are pickpocketable.
I have no issue with farming rules being reduced or whatnot, since if it's all automated income anyways then I don't see the difference between it and crates, but to say that mugging is favored over pickpocketing is just wrong.
By batko at Sep 9, 2024, 12:46 PM
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I'm asking you to describe the mechanics because the distinctions would illustrate why pickpocketing ends up being doubly limited in comparison, but you don't know yourself. The concept of a ratio favours mugging because of the style of thefts versus mugging that players will have available versus NPCs, and the allowances made impact one moreso than the other. I'm not saying mugging needs to be nerfed, but to say these are the same is just not true and that's not even getting into the other specific coded limitations on the theft tools on top of everything else.
By 0x1mm at Sep 9, 2024, 12:58 PM
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Mugging
- Intimidate a player into giving you things or beat them until you can take things
- Beat an NPC and take things
- Only ever mug as many NPCs as you have mugged PCs
- Limited by automated income mechanics
- More dangerous NPCs have 'big ticket' items in their hands
- Get jumped by half of Red before you're done smacking the crate out of someone's hands
Pickpocketing
- Pickpocket a player
- Pickpocket an NPC
- Only ever dip as many NPCs as you have dipped PCs
- Limited by automated income mechanics
- Less likely to have 'big ticket' item in pockets
- Able to do all this while hiding
- Get jumped by half of Red if you ever get caught
Would you make any changes to this assessment?
By batko at Sep 9, 2024, 1:12 PM
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I would ask you to consider that your now year's distant experience of getting stolen from as a new character doesn't make you an expert on what is and isn't relevant or impactful on the experience of players trying to play stealth-focused archetypes now and that you might perhaps engage in a little less pulling up of the ladder behind you by centering your bugbears in every discussion about them.
By 0x1mm at Sep 9, 2024, 1:17 PM
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It's a serious question, if there's a significant change to that bullet point list then I would like to know about it. You have hinted that there is some kind of extra restriction on pickpocketing that muggers are not subject to, if that is true then there is an issue, but I have been trying to dispel some misinformation about how good muggers have it in this thread.
As I have said, I don't have any reason to defend the honor of the farming rules, I think they are silly since it's all automated income either way, so the difference between queuing movement between the crate depot and a store and beating an NPC until they're unconscious has no difference in my mind. But I think you've said some things that seem to be untrue, hence why I have been engaging in this discussion.
By batko at Sep 9, 2024, 1:23 PM
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I don't believe that's why you're engaging in this discussion, no, and respectfully I don't care to validate arguments through discussion of them when they are, in my opinion, based not on good gameplay analysis or broad experience but that, as you've stated before, you were stolen from as a new player and are still grinding an axe over it.
By 0x1mm at Sep 9, 2024, 1:38 PM
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I think you should not have such a dim view of everyone else who presents counterpoints to your arguments.
The basic argument of this thread is that pickpocketing should not be limited by automated income because mugging is not limited by automated income.
I have told you, to the contrary, that mugging is limited by automated income just as pickpocketing is limited by automated income.
Instead of engaging with that information you've just been attacking me and trying to shoo me from the discussion. Good luck with that, I guess.
By batko at Sep 9, 2024, 1:44 PM
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There is no framing I could make that would convince you through persuasive rhetoric or data or policy or rules analysis or comparison that would change your impression because the discussion never happened in good faith to begin with: You don't want theft to see consideration, you don't want stealth to see consideration, you have made this unceasingly clear in many, many discussions and rehashing the same 'no actually' over and over again is not productive for either of us.
This is completely your prerogative, and heading off threats or unwanted gameplay on the BGBB has proven to be pretty effective so I can't really blame anyone for doing it, but I think by the same token it's fair to call it what it is at this point, because we've been through it so many times. Let's not pretend we're collaborating towards some common understanding.
By 0x1mm at Sep 9, 2024, 1:56 PM
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I'm going to lock this thread now.
Thank you for your input on the current state. If we feel we need to examine it, we'll discuss it and make changes where required.
Thank.
By Mench at Sep 9, 2024, 2:03 PM
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JUSTICE
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