Everything is Too Expensive
YES, EVERYTHING

Ideally it would look like this in my back of the napkin math on weapons:

Very Low: 500-3500

Low: 3500-6k

Mid: 6k-15k

Good: 15-30k

High: 30-60k

Super Good Plot Tier Stuff: 80-125k

I'm not advocating for changing everything about how gear works. Don't got time for that. But reducing prices, if that is the root cause, is fairly straightforward and doesn't require a bunch of development work.

I haven't heard any arguments to convince me this isn't a good idea, but it's not my decision alone.

What other reasons are there?

What is your rationale here? I don't follow it. Having actually bought and fired Mk23-S' in anger, at no point was I ever thinking the purchase or replacement cost wasn't relevant.

Seems like a no brainer in terms of actually getting people to do things and not have late-game Tarkov levels of gear fear.

I think nanogenics could also be looked at. With either cheaper gutter versions or more places to get them that might not be totally legal, if not just made cheaper all together.

Most tech is niche and not that expensive in the grand scheme of things, so that's probably fine as-is imo.

Car and AV parts have refurbishment for those who won't want to buy new, but I don't have much insight into the mechanics game.

I would advise against further nerfing the (perceived) price of ammo, the price of non nano chrome, and the prices of drugs, though, as munitions is already a skill on suicide watch, and chrome has a very slim resale margin for doctors to actually profit off of, after the first price cut my doctor made a profit of like 300c off installing a skillsoft in me, for example, and chem prices should be dictated by the chemists making them and their cartels.

Otherwise, though? Shit is way too expensive, jobs don't pay enough for the market, and gaming automated income is lame but borderline required in the current climate because things do be expensive.

Does that mean everyone should walk around in xo3 and protek? No. Will that happen if it was cheaper? Maybe. But if people are losing it as quickly as they're getting it, is that a huge problem?

I don't know….

Well, yes, but no weapon types are readily available as pickaxes by design. That is basically the raison d'être of melee weapons. Any max tier weapon is going to have similar purchasing hoops for characters to jump through.

"Most tech is ... not that expensive in the grand scheme of things, so that's probably fine as-is imo."

I don't want to detour too much away from armour and weapons which are the big conflict drivers, but I really have to disagree here. Having spent something like 10 million chyen on tech tools in the last few years, a lot of it is horrifically expensive for what it does. There is a large variety of tools and tech that the majority of players likely don't even know exist because of how staggeringly expensive they are, and more still that have bugs or unfinished features that will never get play tested and made usable because few players will have the resources to.

That no one ever died with occipital foreceps or a Locust hotwiring kit on them doesn't mean there was never any reason for them to take those things out into the world, it just means if someone had they might just as well roll off the skywalk afterwards.

There are so many plots that just will never happen because random odds and ends cost tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands for no real gameplay reason. Sindome is so weird how strongly it discourages engaging with it's deeper tool mechanics and leaves most players the impression that its technical gameplay is extremely shallow.

In terms of guns some how being less used if the price was dropped, I don't follow the logic.

I've not proposed changing the rarity of items, nor would I change anything with rarity at the same time as changing the prices on anything.

I think having some items, even somewhat common items, be difficult to get at times is fair game. That's how the real world works. You want a PS5 with a disc drive? Or a disc drive addition for your PS5 that doesn't have one? Seems perfectly reasonable, but go out and try to actually find one a few months ago and you might be shit out of luck.

Sometimes there are just not going to be all the things you want, available, all the time. I've committed to resolving some of the sillier things that people find hard to find in the thread I created about it – but this topic is about if things are too expensive and what the downsides and upsides of changing that would be. I recognize rarity might come into play, and even if we lower the price of a gun everyone wants to 25k, the fact that there is only one available might lead to a bidding war, but that's fine in my opinion.

Also, people should consider that the highest damage gun is not always required for an archetype of job (this goes for all kinda of weapons and armor as well).

Some players might feel fine running around in their Xo5 all the time, some might prefer something less expensive (even if prices were lower). Different kits for different situations is a valid choice.

Not everyone can have the best gear, even if everyone can afford it (and not everyone should be able to afford it). Sometimes you're going to lose and have to regear with less costly gear. The reason I'm saying we lower the prices is so that even if you lose the best gear, you can still regear with reasonable shit, even if you have to wait, save, or scheme to get back to having the bestest of the best gear.

Another point might be that increasing earnings across the board could have the same impact as decreasing prices across the board. I only mention this in case one is easier than the other. Though I suspect decreasing prices universally would be far easier.

I just wouldn't want to see too many factors changed at the same time.

There is a correlation between who are the most expensively equipped characters and who we expect to see driving conflict, and while I try to encourage players with less or nothing to lose to get into the deep end, it would be ignoring the cost the most invested players are being asked to pay. It's the top end of the game that is most direly in need of relief, these aren't things to strive for, they're very expensive prisons of cost that lock characters down and away from what they might do because of the pressures to remain competitive and performant.

The value and power creep has become too great over time, characters with 300K, 500K, or 700+K of investment to compete at the high end of gameplay is too exorbitant to ever be dynamic and active. The amount of players who would be willing to spend months generating mundane income to take great risks of total losses is just too small to rely on. I'd say it was better to just eliminate the top end weapons and armour completely than have them remain as they are, but cutting all prices in half seems a lot simpler.

The value and power creep has become too great over time, characters with 300K, 500K, or 700+K of investment to compete at the high end of gameplay is too exorbitant to ever be dynamic and active.

To be fair, you don't have to make these investments, usually (and I think there is some expectation that if you aren't on the higher end of the payscale, that you do not). But yes, I think people underestimate not only the initial cost of the armor, weapons, and cybernetics, but also the upkeep costs, the cost of one-time consumables used in engagements. Medical? Patches? Let's not forget how valuable vehicles are in these conflicts either.

There is also an expectation that you engage with other players, and to some extent, act as a source of income for them. If you do not pay well, or at all, you may very well burn that contact.

The cost of direct conflict in general probably exceeds anyone's income or budget, and there is only so much chyen you're going to draw from the player economy as well.

I can anticipate reduced costs creating a lower barrier to entry. That lower barrier to entry means newer characters will likely acquire those things early on. If they do not squirrel it away, it will be taken from them by more established characters. Leading to… you guessed it... squirreling away. I don't think reducing costs alone solves the dilemma; I think you would have to destroy the value of these things.

Ganger weapons and gear change hands so often those things have almost no value anymore. I know this is going to put a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but maybe the solution is to introduce a greater avenue for obtaining high end equipment from NPCs.

I'm going to start an idea thread to discuss what's floating around in my brain, since, in the course of writing it, it started to feel more and more off topic.

If I were to do it, I would have staff contact some PC fixers of basically any and all levels, or people who are just 'connected' and offer them some crazy cheap bulk deals and then let them distribute them to the playerbase. Holding onto them too long might trigger a WJF raid so sell sell sell!

This is an interesting point that I wanted to quote because it's one that's become applicable in my case that I've been stewing on for a while. Once you reach a certain threshold or become max UE outright, and I could be wrong here, it feels like you then should spend a bit more effort trickling chyen down and giving up and comers work. Even if not an obligation, it's fun and I want to keep doing it! Maybe even invest in their larger goals. That becomes difficult, however, if you know one death can set you back literal months, particularly for PCs not benefiting from automated income.

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So personally, I do not think that things are too expensive in general, but being a non-combatant I don't really have a pony in the race of how much weapons/armor should and should not cost.

I feel that in general the pricing of things is good enough to keep people lean and hungry across the board, and even a little jealous of those who they perceive to be the "haves" to their "have nots". Ganger on the street has to get by with just a baseball bat and Du-Wear while the solo is wearing full Xo5, fully kitted combat chrome, and dual wielding ceramic katanas is too cowardly to go anywhere without a shroud.

But I'm going to also point out that the role of the fixer as a "biz" class hasn't really been brought up in conversation, and what they do for the economy of the game. A good fixer should be able to get you a decent price on items, if not fairly cheap. The problem comes with item rarity, value, and how willing some people are to have items pried away from them.

That being said, I'm fairly certain I've only seen maybe 30% of the weapons out there, since until recently I never knew that metallic war fans were actual weapons that could be wielded by martial artists. So the sheer rarity of some of these pinnacle weapons might as well be if you want one, kill one that has one. That's how they'll be pried away.

But on the topic of income, I will point to one of the other threads where it was talked about how the mix was more alive when there was that bug that had the candy flipping faucets on too often which allowed for more interactions because it required candy, candy which was inevitably fulfilled by, you guessed it… the fixer business class.

But now that the faucets have been fixed, everything is dried up. So that means that there probably isn't enough chyen actually floating around in the game's economy and more needs to be introduced somehow. But in a fashion that would benefit the game without making things too easy.

So here's an idea. Give fixer's more money. But actually make them earn it by doing fixing stuff. Implement this with being able to flip random items to NPC's for big payouts, but these flips don't care what your cap is or if you're over it. Bring them the item, you get chyen in hand. However not everyone would be able to access these flips, only essentially fixers would be able to. This would allow fixers a little more leverage to "fix" people's gear problems.

My idea is a little interesting. Essentially, turn the random flip NPC's into keys to greater markets. When someone hands something over to someone like Mr. D, they'll payout, then make a quiet Trading check. When your non-skillsoft Trading skill is starting to get into the area of you're probably becoming a fixer (maybe like J?) then you show some potential and they'll mention a phrase or a keyword to let people know you're associated with them in some capacity. Now when you mention the password that will turn SOME of the usual flip targets into their own random item flipper, but they don't care how much you've earned in a week. Something like "Oh, he sent you? Alright, get me... " and now you've got a random item for a fixer to run around trying to find. Maybe harder to get items, but the pay is really good. Maybe have the password change approximately as often as Corp keys, so fixers still have to check in with their boss on the regular doing his shit work finding his stuff. Gotta keep him happy or else it's back to running mRc for lev fare.

I'm going to point out one of the things I mentioned is that a reason people aren't out on the streets is that once an immie knows who wants what candy, they just mainline their regulars. Now the fixer would be expected to interact with the entire memento community again, checking in with people to find out what they're wanting this week. Maybe instead of purely random items each one has a certain class of item (market stall designation) that they prefer. This might help foster a quasi-RP sense of knowledge of what groups are like. Sure the Corps at X place sure do love their candy, but once they trust you, they let you know that they're all a bunch of gearheads who want shit associated with cars.

So this'll drive fixers out of their cubes waiting for biz to show up and get them into the streets, trying to chat everyone up and find their weird random shit. It'll foster RP as the fixers try to track down and buy and haggle shit from people to try to turn more of a profit. And more importantly, it'll give an injection of flash into the economy directly to the people dedicated to "fixing" people's problem with losing gear. True, some items can only be obtained from someone's cold dead fingers, but you'd be amazed what can be obtained with cold hard cash in someone's warm alive hand.

Just some sleep-deprived thoughts.

And when the problem is that there isn't enough money in the active player economy, the answer isn't loans, of any kind. At that point you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul but worse because without the active faucets, the money to repay can't actually be created.

10% of the amount of the loan is immediately deleted from the economy, plus whatever the loan giver wants in profit. So with a 100K loan at 20%, instantly 10K is just vaporized from the entire game's economy wholesale. And at the end of the loan, that 100K has returned back to the loaner, plus interest. So that great idea of injecting 100K into the Mix just cost the Mix an additional 30K (10K deposit + 20K interest) that they can never use to buy their things. So now there's even less money in the Mix and more money Topside. That doesn't work.

Most players will never realize that a large amount of their aspirant goals are impossible because they have no concept of spending a million chyen to build a new business, they will have no idea that a huge amount of the new vehicle systems are broken or mispriced or are just many duplicated items masquerading as choices or are phantom items that can't be attached to anything, they won't know that the huge apparent depth of robotics is an illusion because it's nearly entirely broken, that no one has ever tested or bugfixed nearly all of the niche tech or expensive stretch goal items because no one ever bought them and almost no one knows they don't work.

Sindome asks a huge investment of time and care and effort and creativity from players and is kind of a janky, expensive, arbitrary time-consumer in return. Does anyone feel fulfilled grinding for months to buy an acoustic reticulator to keep in their closet? How many players know what cyberware works and which doesn't? Or what a host of 30,000c+ tools work or not? It might take months to buy things that someone put about five minutes into implementing and never tested.

I was all behind phasing out freight licenses because of the system being undercooked and so inequitable, but that was really with the belief that there would be something else done, tweaks made to other incomes or costs, to make up the massive gulf it would leave in the economy.

It feels like I keep having interactions with players getting fed up and saying some version of 'this isn't worth it' in what they're trying to do (or trying to not do) and I'm doing my best to support players I think are bringing more to the game than they're getting back, but the few tens of kays I can manage by grinding out hours of play is going to be a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what tweaking some gameplay knobs could accomplish.

I believe some players are actively burning out so I hope there is some direction or guidance or development that could make things less burdensome.

It's not efficient to buy a synaptic stimulator or nanite hive repair kit or explosives sniffer compared to a motorcycle, but is that economic decision of necessity more fun?

I'm kind of brain farting on some of the stuff I had in mind a few hours ago, but I almost feel like introducing systems across the board that cumulatively reward players for their contributions to the game (like the ambient lease changes) might be a better solution to bridge the gap than to just universally decrease prices, or increase payouts. I want to see people with motivation who are contributing to the game world rewarded over people who are not. Give those people more freedom to do cool shit. The people who lay around and just collect payterm income, and/or run crates just to buy a Holden from TSX? Meh.

How many eyeballs are there on EN-7600 legs or shipping containers or PremoDets to even sort out the bugs to see if they work, how many players don't even know those things exist?

There's a lot more to the game than ProTek and stilettos and Holdens, I'd just like some of it to actually see the light once in a while without costing half a year of time.

Everything that doesn't do combat tends to be seen as niche or not worthy of consideration to combat-oriented archetypes, but it would be nice if there was a bit more support and encouragement of archetypes that weren't just samurai and glock guy. There is a huge tax on almost any item not directly combat related because combat stuff gets all of the attention and there's few to say 'why do Akashics cost three hundred kay?'.

I just hope considerations towards 'low and mid tier gear' as Bubbles phases it, could encompass more beyond weapons and armour because, at least for myself, I'd like the game to involve a lot more than just those things.

There are a host of items that were added and priced without much though over the last five years and ten years and twenty years and then forgotten about because they're too expensive for anyone to actually bother with, or were based on a far different iteration of the game with a different economy. Cyberware multitools were implemented when being a cyberneticist was enormously profitable, vehicle weapons were implemented when vehicle freight made money, robotics were added under the assumption they'd actually be finished. Tons of stuff in the game is not priced with anything approaching practical reality or consideration.

Like seriously when has a GM ever gifted high value items to anyone? That is not something to base archetypal economies around.

Just because armour and weapons are the only things you personally have regard for, doesn't make them the only thing worth of regard and I would not be so quick to be judgmental about who is a 'lay around' as you put it, and have a little more grace for archetypes other than your own. Another more active player might equally think the same of you, that would not make your play invalid or the costs you face as not worthy of consideration.

I don't think combat archetypes are more important than anything, the game could stand to do with far fewer of them if anything, and far more technical archetypes. Every other character being a street samurai is hardly thematic but players go where the attention and support is, and I'd like to see some of that attention and support go to other areas -- even while I am able to equally advocate for better recovery support for combat archetypes.

Blaming player culture goes nowhere, players are not changing. Period. The game has the community it has now, it has the culture it has and that will change only slightly for the rest of its lifespan. We cannot greatly change these things without enormous time and effort that may go nowhere, but we can tweak some prices with a five minute code change.

Things like syringes, cyberdoc tools, incredibly rare items that no one even knows about, has little use for, and are unlikely to be lost nearly as often, if at all… Which do you think is more important?

You were the one being judgmental about players and their engagement and archetypes:

I want to see people with motivation who are contributing to the game world rewarded over people who are not. Give those people more freedom to do cool shit. The people who lay around and just collect payterm income, and/or run crates just to buy a Holden from TSX? Meh.

Respectfully, I'm not the one dismissing player concerns in broad strokes, I'm just dismissing the stance that because you don't care about things doesn't mean they don't matter to other players or are not worthy of consideration.

And maybe realize that people stopped engaging in certain topics because you do so.

Nanogenic Hypodermic 
MedRite Reusable Syringe
PocketDoc Blood Analyzer 
Bloodclot Dissolving Agent Vial
Occipital Forceps
Optic Modulator 
Accoustic Reticulator 
Synaptic Stimulator 
Biochip Reticulator
Nanite Hive Repair Kit 
Reticulating Cyberware Multitool
SK NeuroLink Debugging Unit
Forensi-Max Forensic Kit 
BioMed AutoInjector
Fenta-99 Medical Anesthesia Vial
Nu-POz X Patch
ZMI FortressLock Access Port Cover 
EN-8600 X Robot Parts 
Akashic Robot Box 
PRI pro ARC-X11 
PRI SA94F Network Scanner
SuperFreq 10K Adjustable Walkie
ZMI SecureTalk Cards
ZMI MK-4.0 Binoculars
ZMI Tactical Paraglider 
Ballistics Toolbelt 
ZMI Compound Silencer Kit 
Security Switchboard
SIC Triangulation Tool 
SkyWatch High-Band Radio Rig 
SICid Identification System 
Intercom System 
Touch Screen 
Cybernetic Transcoder Hub
Arcady EconoFuel-33 Aerodyne Power Plant 
Arcady NEX-D7-HL Oversized Power Plant
Overclocked Flight Computer
Crest N99-D Performance Vectorizer
ZMI PremoDet Anti-Missile System III 
Large Steel Cargo Container
Medium Plasticine Cargo Container
Stainless Steel Cabinet
Display Case
Ceramic Combolock Cabinet

Cyber surgery tools. These all largely follow 'one tool for each function' design in surgery gameplay which I feel is outmoded compared to multitools in other systems. Too many tools that do too little each for their high cost.

Cybernetic tools. Just too expensive for the very limited, specialist gameplay power they have.

Medical consumables. Too expensive to see use in comparison to how many of them are in the game.

Forensics tools. Too expensive compared to how few gameplay mechanics forensics has.

Robot parts. Constructing Eisenhowers is too expensive compared to buying them retail, this should be more similar to vehicles where building from parts is a potential savings and drives gameplay and income to player builders. Akashics are way too expensive compared to their function, and could be really fun to have more of them in the game. A bunch of these special robot parts don't work currently but they're at least cheaper.

Electro tools. Just too expensive compared to what they do. Impossible NPC-only costs for some like switchboards and intercomes and others. Triangulator is priced like it's 2104 still.

Radio stuff. Too expensive for their practical function. Needs more uptake to kick off critical mass use.

ZMI stuff. Cool stuff that could cost half as much as it does and everyone has more fun.

AV parts. Getting into FOIC but these parts are not priced in a way that reflects their actual stats, in my opinion. Overclocked computer is a bit of a sneaky trap and should probably not be sold retail. PremoDet needs more uptake just to make sure it works.

Containers. The most expensive one costs 700,000c+. I don't know if the intention is that players can just never use it but that has been the effect.

In general, I think the the game economy is a problem overall. Certainly, it affects combat characters and their willingness to take risks. Yes, I think culture might have something to do with it, but it's a small something. In general I look at the economy as the problem.

Economy is arguably the biggest contributing factor in shaping a meta (aka a culture of game actions). If Skywatch started raining hundreds of Xo3 suits onto the streets of Red from 6-7pm every day, I guarantee that overnight, people would stop hiding them inside to collect dust. It'd be a daily commute item, no longer hidden in closets, and no longer a status symbol. The streets would be overflowing with unwanted Xo3 due to the excess. No one would ever buy it again. And then, like some monologuing villain once said, "When everyone's super, no one will be." Economy changes the IC culture here, not the other way around. That's why we're here addressing it in the first place in an OOC format, because try as we might, the culture isn't really shifting from an IC point, is it? I say this frankly with regard to our PVP inspired game because players in a truly "play to lose" culture probably shouldn't care about having the best end game items every time they go outside.

It's hard to play to lose. Especially all the time. I get it. I don't personally have a problem with anyone that doesn't like the concept or doesn't play to it. I want an economy that allows players the agency to get what they want so they can go outside and try to win and then maybe lose or maybe win. I also want an economy where players don't have to choose between spending money on RP or spending it on personal gear. We should be able to afford both.

And yes, to 0x1mm's point, I think there are also widespread problems with the price of non-combat items. I also think there's a problem with income ratio vs a sort of psuedo-inflation that's happened over time. There's a phenomenon, and this is an unofficial phrase as far as I know, called itemization inflation. It combines concepts like power creep, vertical progression, and economy design in gaming to address an increase in cost related to power creep by proliferation. I went researching after something Slither mentioned in staff discussion.

As an example, there was a time 20 or so years ago when a character could attain an end-game kit for around 70k. It was 3 items. There was your weapon, your armor - which was a single piece for your whole body, and V-202. There was no chrome, no nanos, etc.

Arrive at the here and now and not only has the cost of armor gone up by diversifying it into individual pieces, but the game has much much more gear related to combat. All of these new things are barriers to competitive viability, and so the cost of combat has ballooned over the years. The cost for a top-tier kit today can be over 200k. That's an increase in over 300% vs 20 years ago.

Slither also says there hasn't been an income increase in over ten years.

So the way I see it is that the costs of combat were never intended to be this high in the first place. This looks to me like years worth of unintended imbalances created in the economy as a result of new game features that contributed to loadout complexity. Do I agree with Bubbles that we should consider whether or not we can realistically hold on to top-end gear before we blow our wad on it? Absolutely. Do I think we should be looking at lower tier gear and be willing to take bigger risks that, while possibly resulting in a loss, also means losing less? Definitely.

But I don't think that's going to solve everything. What I really think needs to happen (and I've thought this long before the last Town Hall or these threads) is that we need to do a deep scrub of the economy, item by item, and actually try to build a realistic representation of costs. We also need to evaluate that against automated income sources across the board. Unfortunately, this task is so huge I never brought it up before now.

I don't know that a price reduction to low/mid tier gear will help, but I'm for trying it. I think it should be paired with wage increases as well in order to account for things beyond combat related things. I also think that as a game, we're oddly rigid with economy. I chalk it up to lacking systems to monitor it or track metas, lack of staff, or something else beyond my understanding. In any case, I don't think there's anything wrong with trying things and seeing what does and doesn't work. I also think it's fine to roll changes back if they don't work. That's something we as players should probably expect and be ok with too.

Last thing, and I imagine some won't like this, but I think there's another factor as to why you don't see people in the street anymore. Vehicles are too affordable. I feel I established in this post that I think people play to win, regardless of what culture we try to push. Who would choose to risk walking outside when they can jump on a vehicle and blitz safely past unwanted conflict?

If I'm saving up money for really expensive gear, I'd rather do it myself.

When there are only so many rich PCs, are we really surprised the player gig economy is stagnant? Perhaps it's meant to be this way, and not everyone's supposed to be a badass boss, just my 2 cents.

The megacorps have budgets where these expenses can be reimbursed from so it's as if the chy has just been created out of nowhere. The syndicates also have budgets they can reimburse from.

When this system breaks down then the characters at the middle and lower tiers of the game have less chy to go around.

Not directly related to this tangent, I do agree with Reefer that vehicle ammo should be cheaper or that players should able to craft it though. Honestly vehicle combat was added and it feels like it was implemented in such a way that is so intentionally restrictive only a few of us will ever be able to use it.

The way you acquire weapons and who can install them have been problems for years from what I can tell. If I wanted to roll a new character who did vehicle combat I'd probably change my mind just because of how hard it is to get into.

It's a lot easier to balance a price change to rocket crates when there isn't a six tube launcher to worry about, even if they're practically not mountable now anyway.

Light vehicles with gunner weapons would need to have their hardpoints converted to small fixed driver-fired ones though, which may be a big change to sell overall, it would make light aeros and motorcycles suddenly a lot better for combat but they're close to useless for combat now so maybe that's fair?

One of 0x1mm's arguments last night before I disengaged was that we cannot change player behavior. And no, we can't… but we can incentivize the behavior we want to see. Take crates, for example. Nobody thinks very much of these, but one thing they do is drag people out of their apartments, into the open, entirely in the open, to earn that extra bit of chy. They create an expected sequence of events that other players can capitalize on, and reward players for participating through supplementary income that is more or less guaranteed.

Create incentive for the behaviors you want to see. Reward it monetarily. The economy thrives, the game thrives, and costs of items (admittedly, some costs need to be adjusted regardless... probably) are less of a concern for the PCs that need them.

Economy is economy, whether it's the real world or a game, and I'm not expert on economics, but I do know that just lowering prices, or giving people more money doesn't solve the problem.

I think the majority of the playerbase perceives corporate players as the conflict-averse, risk-averse alternative to the Mix, rather than any sort of position with elevated expectations of engagement.

By Risikio

While leases aren't unlimited money printing machines, they are still a machine that prints money. You may have to put work and effort into said machine, doing the thing, but it still is automated income that prints out of nowhere into the game economy.

This is one of the things I think you have a hard locked perception on. Ambient income from leases isn't much different from terminal income from other jobs. I think your perception is that leaseholders are collecting some absurd amount of money from this. What Slither was trying to tell you is that they are not.

The benefit of a lease is not money.

Pick one up and find out for yourself.

As for items being super pricey and therefore not being used? Well, that's up to the player and I don't really think that's a reason to drop the price. There's a risk/reward leap frog effect in the game that I see some people take advantage of, while others don't.

Get stronger, get better gear, use the gear to attempt to get more, repeat. Eventually buck up against a higher power, probably fail, rebuild, try again.

Item rarity definitely makes it tricky as you might (and I have) somehow ended up with a hot piece of gear you had no business using or even having, and thought 'I'm gonna save this for a year from now when I can actually use it'. I actually had no idea that item rarity was a thing, so I was unknowingly absorbing a slot that a higher char should have been able to hold. In the end though? Time passed, and now I use it, so maybe it's self-correcting in that way. Plus you can get robbed so there's that.

Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I would vote that high-end weapons and items stay high-price. I think the idea is that you are supposed to try and get these for much cheaper through CRIMES not by slowly grinding up 500c at a time to 1 million. The goal should be to steal/con/trick things from powerful characters of factions that you're ICly against for whatever reason. A 300k item that can be picked up? Now THAT'S something to plan for weeks and months to steal.

I could see an argument for mid-range stuff being cheaper, but that's kind of already happening through the fixer economy. Is a pair of knucks almost 30k new at the store? Sure. But not at the PC-ran stores I betcha or through some shady fixer PC. And you know what's even cheaper than fixer prices? Robbing that fixer and getting it for FREE!

DO MORE CRIMEZ BATA!

The goal should be to steal/con/trick things from powerful characters of factions that you're ICly against for whatever reason. A 300k item that can be picked up? Now THAT'S something to plan for weeks and months to steal.

I think players should be encouraged to do those sorts of things too (and I have done them), but I don't think it's really something you can base the foundations of the economy on. You can have aspirant stretch goals of like a ceramic katana, or a vehicle, or a set of armour that it could be practical for players to plot around, but what if you need four survival tents, water condensing tower, binoculars, cooler, plus four SuperFreqs and SecureTalk cards for the plot itself? That's half a million chyen right there. Do you stage one different plot for each of those things?

It totally makes sense to have goals for characters to reach for, but a lot of stuff in the game is just stuff you need to do the stuff that gets you to the goals and it's still priced like the Holy Grail. You don't have to grind for months in World of Warcraft just to buy a hearthstone. There's a ton of plots and gameplay and mechanics that will just never happen and no player will ever experience because the things that do it are spread out over a million little-known expensive items.

So ceramic katanas as things to aspire towards? Sure. Prestige vehicles or armour? Sure. Basic tools with simple gameplay verbs on them? That stuff should be far more accessible.

Hypothetical: Let's say you steal an item from a gang member to sell for next to nothing and repeat this cycle over and over you're now defacto setting the price for that item in a way other fixers who aren't stealing an item from a gang member over and over again can't even compete with. It's a silly loop.

I'm not saying it's against any rules, or anyone is doing anything afoul of the game, just that things such as that in my opinion is just gaming the system and not a sign of a good fixer. It applies also when someone brings you gear to sell. I can't give someone 5k for a cricket bat if someone across town is selling it for 5c.

I only bring it up because there is a coded value, a player value, and then there's an around the clock cricket bay theft cycle (one of a few examples) that really has zero meaningful interactions attached to it in the grand scheme of things. I personally think only hard coded NPC's that ask for those types of items should be the ones that drop them so that players can throttle that economy back a little if they chose to or go full throttle with it if they choose to.

If there's two group that drop the same item and only the second group is being targeted for the items while only the first group accepts the item, you create a surplus that doesn't move because the one has a replenished mechanism doesn't ever need refilled.

If characters want that to work, they have to target the ones that the game benefits from being targeted.

One player in theory can have facilities that do shift the economy, because it sets a price floor others can’t compete with unless they engage in the same loop of steal hatchet from NPC sell hatchet for next to nothing to be sold back to NPC to be stolen from NPC to be sold to NPC and so on, which defeats the purpose of roleplay-driven trade.

And I'm saying you made the assumption that the price decrease is due to something players now are actively doing (stealing weapons for low resale), when it's actually due to the fact that there is a very large supply of already stolen weapons that has never really been depleted since everyone was stockpiling after the street biz changes went in.

If you think an undercut doesn't represent true value you can prove it by buying that underpriced stock and re-selling it, but you might find that there's other market factors involved and now you're stuck with a bunch of inventory you can't move and those 'underpriced' items were maybe more correctly priced than you realized.

(Edited by Slither at 4:21 am on 4/12/2025)