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Explosives/Munitions/Lord of War Vent

This ended up being longer than intended so it might be TL;DR for some but hear me out, I'm trying to be constructive and not just bitch too much.

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With all the new fire fighting gear being made I'd like to raise the concern that explosives is a very devalued skill, along with the archetype Lord of War and Munitions skill in general pretty much having less to do than the Cyberjocky Archetype but with no warning on the archetype page for lack of content cyberjocky has.

I would like to, as others have suggested before with decking, offer the idea that explosives and munitions should be combined into one skill, if not just have explosives removed entirely and left to special events/requests.

Why? Check it out:

Currently the things you can do as a munitions tech:

-Make ammo that takes weeks to complete for a few mags.

-Repair armor once in a blue moon.

-Mod guns once in a blue moon.

-Fix jams once in a blue moon.

-Fail to take apart guns because you need relevant firearm skill, not munitions.

This leads to, aside from making ammo, munitions skill actually being used a few times a year, generally.

Current things you can do as an explosives tech:

-Make cookie cutter bombs that will get their impact ignored and the damage fixed ASAP. (more of a community issue than coded but still very real)

-Get your fire put out early by new firefighting methods.

-Try to make cooler bombs but fail due to lack of implementation/bugs/esoteric knowledge you don't have.

-Get frustrated from the above 3.

-Disarm bombs once in a blue moon.

Compare this to any other skill like Chemistry, whose products are actually worth money and sought after and always useful to everyone, or Artistry who has literal endless content in the form of making clothes, tattoos, singing songs, traditional or holo art or graffiti art, or literally anything the player can work into the skill with their creativity, and it's a little upsetting.

Sure, not all skills are created equal, but it's actually so depressing to play this archetype and/or have these skills, and it's not getting better with all this fire suppression rendering the few things explosives excels at (area denial, property damage, message sending) null and void to someone with the proper gear, which probably isn't as expensive as the thing that made the fire in the first place.

I realize these were likely added because no one actually likes being on fire or dealing with fire at your events or whatever, which, cool, I get it, events were getting bombed too much for a while there. But it feels like a huge waste of UE to invest into Explosives or anything Lord Of War-ish because outside of the cool factor of being a gun/bomb expert, there's like nothing worthwhile to do with these skills and it's not a good feeling....

I agree that munitions and explosives don't do enough on their own to have an entire skill dedicated to them.
I love the RP that comes from the lord of war archetype, just to preface it. Really having fun with it, despite the fact that a lot of code around it is… Peculiar. It made me make some detours to get around them, but fun is being had.

I think few additions could greatly improve the situation codedly (and I will ignore any realism as weapons icly are unrelated to rl weapons, hard)

- Tools required to open weapons, no more field stripping for clean at home - work and RP, get that friendly tech, and more jams. Especially when you find that gutter heater.

- Let high munition strip mods of weapons. Probably with some risks, maybe just plain ruining gun in the process, so helps to also remove some from the market.

- Add condition quality to long mags, so they are not one-off purchase to top up forever maybe?

But all that makes guns less appealing than they are (except mods stripping), so likely would require some wider balancing to keep everyone happy but hey, maybe?

I've always considered these as supplementary skills rather than primary focus skills, but I believe explosives has more potential for a primary role. If one were to go away, I would be in favor of eliminating munitions, which seems more like a gun user tax, and a drop in for armor repair just to prevent artistry from becoming even more profitable than it already is. (Spoiler alert: Artistry is ridiculous.)
I personally don't want to see guns being nerfed in favor of making the munitions skill more useful. Guns already have that niche where they require maintenance with use compared to other combat skills. I do not think it is a good idea whatsoever to lock that maintenance to another skill rather than the combat skill itself.

I think if anything were to happen it should be that the munitions and/or explosive skills should get changed and new features added to them rather than changing existing mechanics and taking away from other skills to make it more viable.

That being said, I also agree that explosives are far more useful than munitions as it stands. However, I was also under the impression that these skills aren't meant to be prioritized and simply taken as part of a utility skillset along with other skills (not necessarily combat skills either, just for a character wishing to offer a range of utility).

I mean, that's not what it says here: https://www.sindome.org/archetypes/lord-of-war/

The solution of melee weapons wearing out too would be nice, but I imagine not popular, even though it brings things a bit closer together, so now weapon specs just do all weapon repairs, pending some tools and consumables, not just firearms. Still firs a lord of war schema.

I fully get the inconvenience of having to go to a tech to fix/clear/maintain your weapons but… Well, it's RP game, and its a fun way to get to rely on others a bit more. Or just get a skill slot, and soft, and tools.

It isn't fun with how fast guns can get dirty, depending on situation. Add in the context of the comparison of melee weapons and it would be tedious and not enjoyable at all. Guns have more restrictions on them than other weapons and more ways of being taken out of use all in the name of balancing for range.

But I agree munitions has a rough, rough, rough go of it.

What I'd like to see is the long discussed, oft wished for implementation of different type of ammunitions (let my rust dreams come truuuuuue) that can ONLY be crafted by people with munitions. Can't be imported, can't be stocked in stores with crates/part of the default inventory. Only by munitions.

Let all mods be dismantled from the guns and while not able to just reuse immediately, dismantled into parts that can be cratfted into lower grade/quality modifications from those parts to sell to beginner and midbie gun users while the top dogs can buy their stuff new from stores.

With different ammunition types these could cause different type of varying damages to armor which make munitions armor repair more viable and more needed rather than every once in awhile it is now.

For explosives, I'd like to see every type of explosive in game as a craftable item. The reagents would need to be more expensive for some, of course, but it'd open up its use besides exploding things and would make it a skill more inviting to invest in rather than slot.

A good idea here might also be to have some customization options (I realize with coding resource limit this will likely never happen as it stands) so a bomb might do less damage on explosion but be more resistant to being extinguished or might do less initial damage but cause more internal and heavier bleeding, etc.

Yeah I am inclined to agree with Crashdown, having played other muds with melee weapon durability it usually comes down to "hey repair my weapon" and that's about the extent of the rp for everyone involved because it gets tedious after the 100th time fixing a katana. Durability wouldn't really add much other than annoyance as I don't think I've met a single player who enjoys the added maintenance firearms need in SD versus every other weapon.

Crafted specialty ammo or bombs and janky firearm mods like an oil filter suppressor is something I've wanted for a while and made @notes about before but never went anywhere. That and/or customized weapons or armor that is @worn or @description only, like the sticker machine but without the limitations of the sticker machine, that only munitions techs can use is also something I've made posts about here before. Imagine if you could put spikes on your favorite protek trench, or dune dragon horns on your xo3 helmet. So much personality compared to a stock standard armor design.

In general, though, I still think if the two skills were combined it would be a coherent enough single skill rather than the sort of half-skills they are now, and people who aren't interested in bombs or munitions can just do one part of the skill, like how not all artistry characters tailor, etc.

I am obviously bias though.

I agree with Crashdown's ideas, it'd make Munitions a functional skill. I'd also say make it so that dismantling guns is a check for either the gun's weapon skill, OR munitions, so you don't need to have three additional skills to professionally clean firearms. Because it's a bit nonsensical.

Also, a "sticker machine" that isn't just normal stickers is a great thought. Let me slap a pearl grip on my revolver. It literally will not hurt anything. (You can't pistol whip after all.)

Expectedly I've got loads of thoughts on this subject but it seems like everyone else covers them. Guns being an ass to use is fine. Just don't make it boring and feel like a pointless waste of UE to get your Munitions up.
I mean, the RP around cleaning heaters isn't exactly more involved than it would be melees, sans the long assembly/disassembly threads. What it does open though is RP around it, make relationships, force to meet other gun users (for the few people who do not self-clean) and at least chance to mix support and combat pcs.

And yes please, guns customizations. Maybe just let us get a fancy machine, high skill, and just rewrite the descriptions accordingly to feature all sorts of modding (within guidelines).

Obviously it is a question of what is possible with the dev time available but I do think that munitions, even combined with explosives just to start would need way more additions than just tweaks to maintenance functions to bring it into line with the feature packed skill sets. Some of the game's systems are very featureful and powerful and the ideal should at least be to plan around them all eventually being so even if that day never arrives.

So, with that aim in mind: I'm a strong advocate for red text functions in skills, namely things that do things in combat and can be used in a combative way (if not necessarily weapon attacks). Explosi-Munitions getting a skill roll bonus on thrown and placed explosive items would be a start, likewise a breakpoint for no longer taking damage from their own placed or throw explosives so they could use smaller explosives to their advantage in combat situations.

New explosive items (even if they're just renames) would be a must because the current ones are too idiosyncratic to build a whole skill fantasy around. A simple satchel charge that is more meaningful than a grenade but not as block-levely as timebombs would fit into a lot of different archetype fantasies (balance this around the question of what would be worth giving up a round of attacks for in the middle of combat). Ditto breaching charges for attacking vehicle panels that are subject to the same rules and functions as rocket attacks.

Finally if gun cleaning has to remain at all, given Explosi-Munitions a negative modifier against firearms wearing to the point that an expert munitioneer doesn't worry about mid-fight jams.

In a nutshell I think ideal balancing of 'support skills' can be thought of in terms of making things good enough that players will want to shave UE off their primary weapon to pick them up where appropriate for pure gameplay and not just for roleplay. See: Dodge, Driving, Stealth and, to a certain extent, Heavy Weapons.
I really love the idea of munitions affecting dirtiness of weapons. Maybe instead of moving maintenance away from heaters, make it so going to an expert then reduces speed of dirtying, call it proper sealing, oiling key parts, adjusting the shims so nothing can get in, whtever IC reasoning for already unrealistic firearms :P. So while you can do rudimentary cleans at home, if you want your heaters to not get as dirty, go to a pro. And that buff can last days, or a week.

So that doesn't add cost to current firearm use, but if you want to have extra reliable heater, pay a pro for extra service.

I don't have much to say about the meat of this thread that hasn't already been said, though I will say that as someone who has had a lot of fun with the explosives skill, I think it does need some love, but I also think that fires being put out with proper equipment is a good thing.

All bombs still cause damage when they initially explode. The fire afterwards is just area denial… that isn't even very effective, just more of a nuisance effect that shuts roleplay down while everyone waits for it to pass. The full extent of effective damage has already been done by the time any firefighting equipment has been deployed.

I'd disagree on that one, batko.

Raging fire that takes a bit of time to put out is a great way to draw someone into a vulnerable position with the right planning. It's a secondary effect. It also draws and keeps away as means of a distraction too.

While I find bombing for the sake of bombing to be obnoxious and less than ideal, and I utterly loathe fire damage to clothing (and when under armor), it has it's appeal and usefulness.

That can equally be true for how certain positions now have a new job of putting out fires with the new equipment, though, so I don't think there's any net loss with the new equipment as originally implied.
Oh are we having a Lord of War sit n' bitch?

So for starters I'd like to say that there is sort of an IC running gag about new weapon specialists boothing.

And I believe that had I chosen to pursue the Lord of War archetype like I wanted to I too would've boothed out of boredom and stopped playing Sindome.

To begin, there is only one type of Lord of War. A legal one. Illegal ones don't exist because they can't. And yes I'm serious on that.

Now for the legal types there are only two paths. A new player can run off and join Viriisoma, the only corp offering Weapon Specialist on their job board. And now the new player has nothing to do coupled with being sealed off from half the playing population, along with the problems of being Jr. Corp. Unless a player relies on meta knowledge of how to actually survive this period, I forsee a fall and a booth.

The other path was, until recently, VERY heavily gatekept by… yeah, moving on.

But what about the illegal weapons specialist servicing the criminal scum of The Mix? Doesn't exist. The idea of the Nic Cage Lord of War illegal weapons dealer is in no way supported in the slightest.

1.) Gangers don't use guns - There may have been a time when the streets were ablaze with gunfire, but it is NOT now. It's almost as if the gangers want to obey the law. I know the idea was floated at some point at a Town Hall about arming some of the NPC's with lower end calibers, and the response was a very loud negative on that.

2.) Guns sit where they end up - That's either in the hands of solos/syndies or sitting on a shelf collecting dust in a closet somewhere. Either way the odds of those weapons suddenly entering the market are slim to none. The dealer will never be able to lose the weapon because gangers don't buy and the solos either already have one of those or they have better. And Solo McSwingdown isn't going to be losing his smudge anytime soon when (Shroud + Xo3 + smudge) > (Getting Jumped + Depot + cricket bat).

3.) Zero profit. And I mean zero. - The market is frozen and prices of firearms can't be haggled over. In the markets, Gomer Pyle can get as good of a price on his heater as "Bob" Dobbs can. We're not even going into there being zero secondary market for weapon mods. For Trading being marked as an IMPORTANT skill for a Lord of War to have, it is useless for any trading involving Lord of War activities.

Also unpopular opinion, but being able to haggle over sheathed firearms is abusing an exploit. If it's the design decision to lock the prices as they are, tossing it in a sheath to haggle for better prices is an exploit.

4.) Insanely high investment in comparison to any return. - Take a second to think about the general street price for a ballistic belt. Now think about the average cost that you think is acceptable to fix a jam, or clean a gun.

Given the need for a specialist is once in a blue moon, how long do you think it'll take to just pay off the belt? Heaven help the fool who invests in repairing armor.

5.) Repairing Armor will get you killed - There seems to be a stigma around repairing your armor in the Mix. Mixers would rather die than ever subject their armor to a repair dummy. I can't blame them, considering that no matter how good of a ballistic tech you are, the end result is always the same. YOU FUCKED UP. Now their armor is permanently weakened all because of you convinced someone to patch up the cannonball holes in their jacket. So because of this there is zero way to gauge how your skill is increasing, and even the best of the best will inevitably risk IC repercussions for ruining things when they can not in any way not ruin it.

6.) Insane UE investment - As has been said, not only do you need skill in Munitions, you need skill in whatever you're working on too. So that means investing in not just one, but five separate skills, all of which you'll most likely never actually use. Meanwhile the solo/syndie can ignore your entire existence by buying a toolbelt of their own and a bronze skillsoft.

7.) The people who would benefit from you can ignore you completely - Here I'm talking Syndicates. Logically, crime families would probably love to have someone on the payroll to make sure everything is in perfect working order and to take care of their stockpiles of weaponry. Except that syndicates are arbitrarily labeled as big boy clubs that you must be so many UE to join. And even then, I'm willing to bet they have ways of obtaining their illegal weaponry that skips any form of IC interaction with other players, and when they do need a specialist, they no doubt have a toolbelt and skillsoft lying around to just do it themselves after a day or two.

So yeah, rant over, but all of these issues, I'm going to agree that with less support than cyberjocks that the Lord of War archetype be removed completely. It gives too much of an idea that themes exist within Sindome gameplay when they very much do not.

Really all the archetypes should be gutted and redone from the ground up, but that's a bridge to burn another day.

Armour degrading was, in my opinion, a huge design mistake a major disincentive to conflict but I'm like 80% sure that repair negatives are placebo and the messaging is conveying something that isn't actually happening due to ??? on the implementation but I'm happy to be corrected by that by someone who found different in testing.
To be more specific, I noticed that the state[/i of the armour in the original implementation seemed to be based on its absolute armour value (so items not intended to be armoured at all would show as destroyed because they had zero armour). The messaging on that was fixed but I still though that maybe armour would show false positives on degradation but it was very, very difficult to test player-side.

The other thing was that armour showing weakening from repairing never ever seemed to translate to detectable gameplay differences, but it's not like a ran a simulation of thousands of rounds of combat so that may have just been a sample size issue.

And the reason I am suspicious of an implementation issue on degradation is that Wear-and-Tear came in on vehicles at the same time to a similar purposes and outcome, and does not occur or does so at an infinitesimally low rate so as to be irrelevant but the messaging that it occurring is still present.
There is a bit of wrong ifnromation here, at lest based on current state of affairs as someone heavy in that side of rp. Though I am trying to not get too IC about it

> 1.) Gangers don't use guns

They definitely do, first hand knowledge. I would love way more, and not just as sometimes, but they do.

> 2.) Guns sit where they end up

> and

> 3.) Zero profit

Guns move quite a bit in the mix. Actually too much, which means the only people who can really compete are people who buy and sell 2nd hand, realisticlt as trying to sell new ones… Yeah, the secondary market is too big and too easy to access for most pieces and with not enough demand to drive prices up.

> 4.) Insanely high investment in comparison to any return. - Take a second to think about the general street price for a ballistic belt. Now think about the average cost that you think is acceptable to fix a jam, or clean a gun.

Ballistic belt is not needed for cleaning. I'd love it to be hah as for things needing a belt you can happily charge more.

> 6.) Insane UE investment

> 7.) The people who would benefit from you can ignore you completely

That's quite true, well, you don't need INSANE ue, but it is quite a bit of UE, though bronze munition I don't think replaces a tech for anything but cleaning. But yes, the point stays that skillsoft could really get in the way here, no idea if they actually do.

That's sort of an exception that proves the general point though. If you subject characters that skill into a firearm right at the end of their ganging careers you get about 5/100 characters in the last few years that use firearms and three of those were right after the weapon renaming when they got a surge of popularity that fell off again.

Firearms are just massively underrepresented in the front half of the game because they're such a pain in the ass to deal with on just about every level, but my view is there is just way too much institutional factors for that to ever change at this point.

If rifles get a design pass it might inject some temporary try-and-see enthusiasm into them but my sense is the current level of usage is pretty much the baseline interest at this point and the variances will taper to this short of gameplay changes.

If you *subtract*. My kingdom for an edit button.
Hey Folks,

Thank you so much for your feedback and discussion on this. We're going to lock this thread now and take into consideration any changes that need to be made going forward to enhance the gameplay of you fine people!

Thanks for taking the time to feed your back to us, we really appreciate it!

The Fire Extinguisher nades I made are also finger print locked to a certain faction, so