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Is the gap not..gappy enough?

I am desperately curious about this.

So Topside - things trickle down. Chy. Work. RP. All that. However, I have run around and looked at the pay for various roles and I am in awe that a mixer can make more than a topsider in a week - yet topside is supposed to be more cushy.

Now provided this is Junior level stuff but here's what has me.

You chose to move topside. You immediately are hated and are a target. It's less busy. Less RP. Still has lots of room for fun but it is VERY different. However add to that the fact you don't make as much chy as people think and it's weird as hell. You can't afford new threads, toys - all that. You have to grind just as hard as if you were in the mix.

Has it always been that way?

Corporate job salaries start about where the service job salaries cap off. Corporate jobs scale up higher on terminal salaries than any other jobs do, at the cost of some of the casual extra ways of making additional money though this is balanced out by having access to requisitions and reimbursements that non-corporate characters don't have. In the end the potential for making chyen is somewhat comparable across every part of the game, it just comes in different ways.

The weighting towards salaries and reimbursements (which you can file asynchronously any time and get approval for later even if asleep) makes these roles perfect for players who can't play for hours every day and grind for every chyen, and gives players more freedom to focus on their roleplay versus their gameplay but will definitely take some adjusting to if players are used to being able to convert daily time directly into money when required.

Ooooooh. Is it meant for players who can't play that much?

Because it just seems there's a missed opportunity to rock RP trickle down if the goal of topside is just to collect a pay cheque.

No, not meant for really, just more accommodating of that.

It's fairly normal for players in junior corporate roles to feel a financial pinch because they have non of the previous perks they had access to, all these additional costs, and none of the new perks they have to look forward to yet.

That said, a lot of the wealth and status and privilege of the corporate world in Sindome is cosmetic: More lavishly described housing, more upmarket clothing, the trappings of wealth, but less so actual literal money going to players.

That seems like a real waste of opportunity.
You're also less likely to encounter financial setbacks via death or other forms of PvP while topside which is important to note, and depending on your role may have a means to recuperate those losses that mixers do not have.

Much like 0x1mm said though, a lot of corporate life is the enjoyment of those more opulent surroundings and a sense of higher quality of life. It's a different flavor of theme and play style for those who enjoy it over the alternative.

Is it really more opulent? Stuff costs more, so you can't buy it. Rent is more. Yet you make less. I just..this is nuts.

There's a tendency to think of corporate roles as a step above the rest on the career progression ladder, but it's more like there are two different ladders and players will start on the bottom rung of whichever they choose to climb.

In some cases you can rapid advance switching from one to the other and skip some of the initial climb, but it's not as if junior corporate characters are super wealthy socialites starting off. They're still at the very bottom of the corporate hierarchy.

Keep in mind it's a competitive game where (mostly) everyone is after the same resources, pretty much any part of the game that gives access to those resources (influence and chyen) will be gated by time or effort or knowledge or competition, or all of the above.

Although true - if a Corporate Citizen isn't allowed to date, or can be shunned for even hanging around mixers. Than shouldn't a junior level corporate be a step above an average mixer who can make more money than them?
Well, the average Mixer isn't making more than a junior corporate character, in theme the average is probably around 1000c a week or less as an average, in gameplay practice among players it's probably around 3000c to 5000c a week.

But that aside these are sort of different concepts: Gameplay balance versus theme. The rewards provided to characters are going to be a factor of how much game knowledge they have, the work they do and the time they invest, their investment and engagement. The limitations players have on their roleplay is going to be a matter of theme, and different roles in the game will have different expectations and standards.

The roleplaying divide between Corporate and Mixer is basically an artificial construct that is imposed to greater or lesser degrees since players will, if given the option, just treat everyone in the game as an extended friend network and it ends up eroding the thematic differences if a WCS worker spends the day digging skillsofts out of the sewer just to retire to their partner's pad on Blue.

I get what you're saying but none of that actually makes sense to me.

The divide is enforced maybe because of people's assumptions, but it is heavily enforced and it is often used as a factor to ensure people don't get too comfortable. It is not something you can screw with. Not unless you want to suffer the consequences.

Monetarily, I don't know a single mixer who only makes those low numbers. Everyone hits cap, or the people I know of. Mixers have the ability to make so much more given the massive amount of RP available to them versus those topside. There are no topside perks that can make up for that.

As I said months ago in terms of earnings, that is in my experience well above the average. If you're playing all day, every day, you're already way outside the average experience even if you're only seeing, or mainly seeing, other players who do similar. If you take a look at this table from the Town Hall you can see there is 100 or so regular players each given day, but there's another 200 on top of that who play with less activity.

Junior corporate roles don't get huge spendy salaries off the starting line, but they get them every week, week in and week out, forever (subject to some minimum level of activity). This combined with the vastly increased safety means that corporate roles tend to make a lot more money over time than a lot of players think, it's just a matter of getting over the fallacy that well I saw someone make 25,000c that one week as a Mixer so that's what I should be expecting all the time.

The idea is to keep everyone more or less on the same plane of existence when it comes down to it, so that no one part of the game dominates any other, and that players have a wide variety of things open to them that are all sort of similar to one another in what gameplay potential they open and that players are not forced into picking "meta" jobs just for the sake of resources.

Not really sure what the divide has to do with this argument, particularly since there are very much easy ways around it if you want to do biz with mixers, but corporate citizens do in fact have ways to hit cap weekly just like mixers do and often have perks that can affect their cost of living in positive ways.

You might be making a mountain out of a molehill.

One part of the game already dominates the other. So really, if topside was opened up a little so it could increase the RP brought down to the mix - I don't see that as a flaw.
"Junior corporate roles don't get huge spendy salaries off the starting line, but they get them every week, week in and week out, forever (subject to some minimum level of activity). This combined with the vastly increased safety means that corporate roles tend to make a lot more money over time than a lot of players think, it's just a matter of getting over the fallacy that well I saw someone make 25,000c that one week as a Mixer so that's what I should be expecting all the time."

^ This. If you want to get a nice fat lump sum like that, start doing crime or killing people for money and see how much you gain vs lose when something inevitably goes south. Topside is significantly safer as a whole and I've never heard of anyone complaining they can't afford basic necessities like rent up there. Maybe stick it out for a while and see how it goes.

The issue has been that players often say they want more resources so they can drive more roleplay and create more plots for more players, but in practice this only happens in a very limited way. Except for roles where players are very heavily scrutinized for what they're doing every day or every week, players will tend to just stockpile money.

If you want to be in the position of being spendy towards big plots then the thing to do would be to find those positions and chase after them, though there is either 1) a lot of competition for them, or 2) a huge workload associated with them, so it's generally not enough to simply volunteer and get an expense account. Everyone has to work for it if they want to be the one who people ask for work from.

My experience has been that generally, over time, players who make it a priority to do cool stuff and make plots happen for other players will be given more and more leeway to access things like reimbursements and requisitions to those ends, but it will never come in the form of an NPC just giving someone a pile of money and telling them to have fun.

I give up heh. It is as it is. I will just leave it be.
Corpie junior is barely a step up from a service mixer both in status and pay. You sold your soul for safety, not walking over dead bodies every day, real food, a stable paycheck and the promise of a future if you can keep yourself out the gutter long enough to promote past junior. Until then you're just another nameless cog in the corporate machine until you rise the ranks to become a somebody with actual sway and access to more means to make chy and toys that, if you play your hand right, your corp will pay for anyway.

Nothing in Sindome that is really worth it has an instantaneous, obvious payoff the same moment you do it. This is a slow burn type of game. Usually.

It will probably feel restrictive at first but everything topside has to be tuned around player characters eventually returning to the Mix, since they can choose to or be forced to. Players can accumulate a lot of gear and chyen over time when they have basically no risk of death of theft, which after years of play can start to be game-warping levels of personal wealth if they decide to splash down and play Mixer again.

In my view this should be impossible or so punished to such a brutal and costly degree no one would ever consider it an advantageous strategic decision, but as long as it remains possible I would personally see tight controls on corporate wealth a necessity for balanced factional gameplay in the Mix.

So there really is no point to topside then as it goes. Since I don't see a decrease risk to death or anything. You basically get nothing out of it. Less RP. More danger in some ways and yeah - when you go back to the mix you're screwed.
No? There is significantly decreased risk of death as has already been stated more than once, you get safety and more freedom to enjoy social roleplay while accumulating decent pay, definitely not more dangers by any means and if you enjoy the immersion of more comfortable living then you get that too.

I don't understand how you can read all these responses and explanations from your fellow players, then continue to point out perceived issues that have already been touched on. What response were you hoping to get when you made this thread? What's the answer to your concerns that is not being provided?

I remember at one Town Hall a few years back, Slither once did a voluntary 'show of hands' on who has died in the past month, three months, six months (may be getting the time wrong).

Barely any corporate characters volunteered the information that they died. Some of them may have been hiding it to avoid meta, possibly, but I feel like it's pretty accurate. Corporate characters are absolutely not in a more dangerous environment and they die vastly less often, if ever, than mixers.

I would guess it is quite common for corporate characters to have never died during their entire corporate career, and even more common for most of those who did die to have not died more than once.

That is the real wealth of corporate citizenship. Safety.

I guess my personal experience Nymphali is what I'm going off of. It doesn't feel safer. But that's just me. I will be quiet.
My advice is not to seek any role out for it's monetary advantages, real or imagined.

None of them are worth just the money they pay. I've watched players trying to fake their way through their 30,000c a week jobs for the sake of the chy and they were miserable the whole time. Fit into a corporate role if you like it, and don't worry about the rewards except in terms of figuring out how to do the stuff you want to short term.

Never ever take a job you don't like hoping to soldier through to something that pays well.

I can probably count on one hand the amount of corporate players I know of that have died in the last couple of years, it's definitely safer. YMMV of course but that's true for most things.

You don't need to be quiet, it's okay to ask questions and have concerns, but it's also important to consider the information being given to you even if it's not necessarily what you wanted to hear, and give things a proper chance.

It's not about accumulating money. It's about having it to do the things you're expected to suddenly be able to do when topside. Hire runners. Pay for things. Do ANYTHING.

I guess if the focal point is to just collect pay cheques than yes - it works. So that's what I have gathered from this discussion. THe goal of topside is to survive being a junior, do fuck all and maybe someday you can do something worth any use.

None of that drives RP or encourages a person to bother.

Topside is meant for slow play. Junior level does and will feel stressful in some ways that are similar to Mix and some that are unique of topside. Money can be a struggle. Membership pads seem to be a necessity there, at least starting out.

The ways of earning automated income are definitely not as easy. The McGuffin system was a step towards helping that, but it got removed for what I think was good reason.

The perks are good, depending on the job. Requisitions and reimbursements are helpful once they are available. A corporate character who lives up there for a long time will be wealthy because they don't lose as much, not because they are raking in flash weekly.

But there's also a certain degree of patience needed - much more than the Mix, even. Topside has a high burn out rate, but those that stay, tend to stay for a long time. Plots are done over months, not weeks or days like some Mix ones. It's very much an acquired taste for many and really contingent on how active it is at the moment to see available RP.

But ultimately, it's up to corporate character to push this theme on Mixer characters to make them believe it. The divide is less mechanical than it is thematic, and if dirty Mixers are mouthing off, a corporate citizen should use their resources to get them to shut up.

Except you don't have resources to fight back against any mixers causing issues. You're exactly the same broke person whether topside or in the mix. Nothing changes except location.

And I've only been in this game for four months. In that amount of time I've seen topsiders die. So maybe it's just me.

It is what it is. I get it. Just chill and wait. I'll go play another mud while I do so. It's fine.

How many runners are players hiring in their first week as a Mixer? How much chyen are fresh immies splashing on fancy purchases, or spending on plots?

New corporate hires are bottom of the ladder probationary, they make limited amounts of money and have very limited access to perks of the jobs. They will rely on their fellow faction members a lot, they're not really expected to be totally self-sufficient. They have dedicated security and operations agents for their protection and transportation (plenty of these players are dying for something to do so make use of them), dedicated HR staff to help them navigate settling in to their new lives, superiors whose job it is to basically provide them things to do, and eventually subordinates who can do things for them.

These are huge factions compared to anything in the Mix, and the biggest power that corporate players will enjoy is making use of everyone in them effectively.

If mixers are making problems for the corporation, usually there is a security team dedicated to remedying that without individual employees paying out of pocket.
It's hard to get used to corporate life. I sympathize with you. It's a big difference from the fast-paced environment of the Mix where chy comes and goes in the blink of an eye. There's a lot less ebb and flow in terms of characters as well - which means that you'll be able to craft long-term, lasting stories with many of the PCs topside.

Something that I suggest is leverage the power of your faction - that is, your corporation - against any haters or naysayers. If you were hired, that means you have value to whoever hired you. They hired you for a reason. As long as you remain an asset to them, and not a liability, then maybe you can convince them to protect you or help you out somewhat. They're not obligated to, but they might – if you prove you're worth it.

A lot of this game entails making alliances with more powerful people and then using these alliances to your favor.

That's sweet Svetlana but not even close to an option.
With all due respect,

Help embezzlement is a great file to review. I encourage you to read it and to try some of the actions people are encouraging in the thread rather immediate dismissal.
I'm only dismissing it because most of it isn't an option. I'm also being entirely invalidated. Which has now gotten too close to IC issues so I can see trouble coming. It's fine.

Just login less.

It's more that you're staring at the ground and thinking it's a wall.

I don't know who the world's leading expert on corporate play is but any list of the top 3 has got to include Crashdown so there is no universe in which his advice won't apply.

I'm going to ask an admin to close this thread as there's nothing more to be done with it.
You're not being invalidated, you're being given in-depth suggestions and advice on things you can do to improve your experience with corporate play, which if you've only been playing the game four months is probably relatively new for you, and with every subsequent response you're turning your nose up and insisting on the issue. It's not very conducive to a fruitful or worthwhile discussion.

If the only answer you were looking for was "you're right, here's more chyen" then you're probably going to be disappointed. Ask your boss for more pay, leverage, hustle, think outside the box. Anything.

I was just inquiring about the economic situation in general and how it's not entirely conducive to RP. I wasn't saying give me more money specifically. It's just something I've noticed in my limited experience.

And then it devolved into this. I wasn't asking for offers of advice about what to do as none of it is applicable at this time. I am not turning up my nose, I am stating it is not applicable!

Now it's solely focused on me, which wasn't the point. I entirely regret posting this.

Locking this thread per OP's request and because we're definitely drifting into IC territory.

As a final word, I would definitely encourage anyone who is having trouble making money either in the Mix or topside to engage with people who have been successful. The knowledge and means are out there, but the best place to find out about it is in the game world itself.