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From what I have gathered from help files and the original release of the performance system, the crowd opinion in a performance is tied to the room itself and carries over between performances of different performers.
So, for this concept, a command that lets you 'boo (pose details)' or just 'boo' for a generic booing emote in order to impart a small negative effect on crowd opinions in the room. Similarly, a cheer command to impart a positive opinion. This could introduce some level of conflict into artistic performances beyond throwing molotovs.
Yes, this can already be done in an RP fashion, but so can performances. If performances have mechanical responses and statuses, they should probably be able to be affected by players.
By batko at Sep 27, 2024, 2:47 PM
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LEGEND
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By Rillem at Sep 27, 2024, 2:48 PM
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CHUMMER
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By BubbleKangaroo at Sep 27, 2024, 2:49 PM
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BAKALAKA
123 posts
+1 allowing you to hire a professional hypeman to help keep the crowd going
+1 some megastar having so many groupies even if the performance is shit they still cheer them anyway
By AdamBlue9000 at Sep 27, 2024, 2:49 PM
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BAKALAKA
95 posts
This could give certain establishments another reason to keep bouncers on staff. Keep the rabble rousers out!
By BubbleKangaroo at Sep 27, 2024, 2:50 PM
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BAKALAKA
123 posts
I like this idea a lot. It should definitely have a cooldown on it. Maybe each person can do it once per performance, or once every 5 minutes or something.
By Emily at Sep 27, 2024, 2:51 PM
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CHUMMER
183 posts
I like this even more now.
By Rillem at Sep 27, 2024, 2:51 PM
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CHUMMER
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I don't think that at most, a handful of guys, are gonna have that significant of a dent in the ambient crowd's opinion of a performance.
By Baguette at Sep 27, 2024, 2:52 PM
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SOLO
355 posts
Thats like saying PCs can't affect game world, when thats wrong. They totally can, it depends on who they are.
By Rillem at Sep 27, 2024, 2:53 PM
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CHUMMER
173 posts
I think this is a great idea. Like mentioned, it gives incentive to hire security and it can create conflict when the rabble rousers get tossed out of the club/bar if warranted. If your coded skill is making the performance go well but it's not hitting with the players, this could also be a fun way to balance that out (I'm guessing on that one.)
By Mindhunter at Sep 27, 2024, 2:57 PM
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CHUMMER
171 posts
A cooldown so it's not spammable makes sense. Also, you'd be surprised how much a few vocal people can sway a crowd. Clapping, booing, cheers, and heckling can all be socially contagious.
By batko at Sep 27, 2024, 2:57 PM
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LEGEND
796 posts
I don't know. I've seen several situations where a PC has done poorly, the ambient audience has reacted negatively, but the PCs praise them and say that it was really good/amazing/etc and are bobbing their heads. This could accidently codify that sort of no-selling so that any Joe Baka with little UE investment can do well in performances.
I do like the RP opportunities it could create, though.
By Bear at Sep 27, 2024, 3:07 PM
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SPLATJOB
51 posts
Maybe cheering should have less effect, or there should be only boo commands. No-selling can be an issue, unfortunately.
By batko at Sep 27, 2024, 3:10 PM
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LEGEND
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I feel like no-selling should be an issue considered separate from this, since it can apply to anything.
By BubbleKangaroo at Sep 27, 2024, 3:12 PM
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BAKALAKA
123 posts
This is a fantastic idea.
There have also been some well published studies that show how easily people's opinions are swayed when in large crowds.
It's between 6-25% of people. Depending on which experts you want to give credence to.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/want-to-change-society-s-views-here-s-how-many-people-you-ll-need-on-your-side/
By Hek at Sep 27, 2024, 3:12 PM
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I imagine cheering is a thing you do, and while you're doing it, you're considered 'actively cheering'. Same with booing. Meaning if you walk out of the performance, you're not cheering anymore. And it has a multiplicative effect both ways. If you go to a really high-end performance and you pay everyone in the crowd a kay to boo it, even the biggest rock star can get shouted out the building. But conversely, got a crowd of people cheering, even if the person is shit, they can get the crowd at least to not be actively hostile as some of the lower end rolls. Maybe up to a set bonus equal to the persons performance both ways.
What I mean by that is, if someone has say, arbitrarily, 20 UE into artistry for a performance, if the entire room is cheering you on you can get a 25% boost, so now it's like you have 25 UE into it. Enough to maybe take it from a mid performance to an actually decent one, but not enough to make a bad one good. But it can make a good performance great, or conversely, make a decent performance kind of shit.
By AdamBlue9000 at Sep 27, 2024, 3:16 PM
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BAKALAKA
95 posts
It's a good idea, though realistically PCs cheer for literally everything so the effect is just to lower the stat requirements for a positive performance, but really who cares? Bad crowd reactions are probably just more discouraging to players efforts than encouraging of them spending UE so I have no problem with PCs getting to bolster their aspiring friends this way.
By 0x1mm at Sep 27, 2024, 3:48 PM
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LEGEND
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I think the potential for conflict opportunities here may outweigh the possibility of players cheering for everything. Besides, when it is mechanical, it may be more obvious that people are no-selling and it may begin to self-regulate. Wishful thinking maybe.
By batko at Sep 27, 2024, 3:58 PM
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LEGEND
796 posts
I agree, there really isn't a way to sabotage performances without going full nuclear by clearing the room which is IMO way too far for most purposes. Especially with disruptors going topside to cause trouble at live events, the options available are kind of 'Do Nothing' and 'Go Too Far' so this gradient of heckling seems like a great inclusion.
By 0x1mm at Sep 27, 2024, 4:07 PM
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LEGEND
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This could actually have the opposite effect to what's already been stated in that it actually causes there to be less conflict. Let me explain:
Most performers are only so powerful and if they are up against a larger group or even a circle of friends they are then at risk of being booed off the stage at every single performance. You can't brute force your way out of that or even really retaliate in kind because those responsible may not be as easy to affect. If they are also a performer that may be different though.
What's more likely to happen is performers try their best to appease whoever could make it more difficult for them to even get a coded positive reaction from an audience. I just see this as being too easy to use to snuff out someone's ability to be on a stage.
By Necronex666 at Sep 27, 2024, 6:54 PM
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STREET SAM
476 posts
If people are booing performers off stage, that sounds like there is more conflict. If it is happening in a targeted fashion and frequently, it sounds like that's on the venue for not protecting their performers from hecklers.
By batko at Sep 27, 2024, 7:02 PM
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LEGEND
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@Necronex666
Everything that you listed as a potential downside seems like a laundry list of exactly the kind of conflict that people are hoping for.
Getting booed on the regular? That's a challenge.
Beat them up. Have someone else beat them up. Pay them off. Perform somewhere that they don't have access to. Etc.
If a system like this were ever implemented, I would hope that audience participation would be a factor, but not the deciding factor. Maybe the audience can influence it one or two degrees in either direction.
If the performer is horrible, maybe their fan squad can get them up to medicore, but still bad to the point where NPCs are reacting negatively. If the performer is a super star, maybe their haters can pull them down to , whatever is still better than neutral.
Generally speaking, I think in a game like Sindome, characters should the ability to influence the ambient population, but not override it. I mean this specifically in the context of coded systems. A character might have half of the Mix believing that they are the best fighter in the world. But if they get curbed stomped in UMC because their stats and skills are trash, the opinion of other characters is irrelevant. I feel like coded performances should be the same.
By Hek at Sep 27, 2024, 7:05 PM
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LEGEND
1,167 posts
On Sindome you can really either be a performer or you can be pissing people off. It is incredibly difficult to do both at the same time if you want to continue to have interactions that's going to make the former feel meaningful. The automated responses of the crowd balances that out some but if this change were implemented it would swing the pendulum right back in the other direction again.
As I commented prior, you cannot brute force your way out of a situation where a larger group does not want you to perform. There is a difference between said group saying that you're terrible and the game itself reflecting that because of the booing the quality of your performance is now devalued.
This is going to seriously discourage those players who simply do not have a way to combat it, and will impact those who are say, actual media stars, a whole lot less. Those who will be most affected will be those at the bottom of the ladder.
By Necronex666 at Sep 27, 2024, 7:13 PM
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STREET SAM
476 posts
If people really didn't want a performer to perform, they can just molotov them and ruin the entire event anyways. This provides a middle ground that is more interactive for everyone.
By batko at Sep 27, 2024, 7:15 PM
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LEGEND
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A molotov would actually not be as bad as the code itself saying you're a terrible performer, especially if that happens on repeat. One is a nuisance that can be literally doused and moved past as happens everytime a molotov is involved, while the other is a coded rejection of the effort you've put in that will persist throughout the entirety of your show and remove the subjective nature of all negative criticism.
By Necronex666 at Sep 27, 2024, 7:19 PM
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STREET SAM
476 posts
Performance code provides a self-assessment of your abilities. If you're kicking ass at a performance and still getting booed, the code will tell you your character's assessment of their abilities regardless of exterior opinions.
By batko at Sep 27, 2024, 7:23 PM
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LEGEND
796 posts
Exterior opinions arguably matter more. Criticism is fine, heckling is welcome and disruption is expected, but the code validating all of the above will give those things legitimacy they didn't have before.
Going back to the point about the molotov though, those can be stopped if the venue has security present as well. Hiring security is just often neglected when it shouldn't be.
By Necronex666 at Sep 27, 2024, 7:27 PM
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STREET SAM
476 posts
It would make sense anyway to constrain how much cheering or booing could effect a performance, not only out of concern for fairness but also just because it would be very annoying for PCs to either be constantly cheering or jeering non-stop throughout trying to move the needle in any direction.
I am imagining one of those meters in a side mission minigame, neutral in the middle and good and great on the positive side and poor and terrible on the negative. This is getting a bit into the over-theorycrafted weeds for a simple idea admittedly but if there was just either two cheers or two boos registered for any given performance then at most the concern would be having two supporters or detractors to cancel out or improve or diminish a performance.
By 0x1mm at Sep 28, 2024, 12:38 AM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
Since crowd opinion is tied to the room and not any particular performance, it probably just makes sense to have a lengthy cooldown of 10 or so minutes. I don't know what the average length of a performance is, but I feel like it's somewhere around that long.
By batko at Sep 28, 2024, 12:40 AM
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LEGEND
796 posts
Maybe instead of active boo/cheer, it could be a flag you set on your PC?
Like when you write boo, it makes you into booers, in cheers the cheerers, and then when background crowd gets animated it reflects the proportionality.
That also leaves people freedom to poste clapping/jeering at whatever pace makes sense, mechanical crowd aside.
Oh, and I love that idea so much.
By Aida at Sep 28, 2024, 12:59 AM
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STREET SAM
406 posts
Not only do I agree that the impact PCs can have should be constrained, but I also think that how much any one PC can impact things should be based on stats and skills. A kind of counter performance. I'm not saying that others be excluded but that one's ability to sway the opinion of a crown should be better or worse based on rolls.
Also, I think that it might be good to have the crowd turn against the hecklers in some cases. If the performer is doing amazing and the beckler is doing poorly, the crowd should still cheer for the performer and start heckling/expressing their anger towards the one booing.
Honestly, however, I do think that Necronex666 has valid points. Players and thus characters tend to be conflict averse. And when they engage in conflict most prefer to do it in discrete and hard to track ways. Further, the first time a character boos a performance then has a bunch or PCs turn against them might be the last time the system is really used.
By Grey0 at Sep 28, 2024, 6:26 PM
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LEGEND
1,044 posts
I agree that the impact should probably be based on charisma.
I don't think "people are conflict averse, so adding new tools for conflict is a bad idea" tracks for me, though.
By batko at Sep 28, 2024, 6:33 PM
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LEGEND
796 posts
I apologize. I wasn't suggesting that this shouldn't be implemented. Just mentioning things that I think should be considered in the design of such a feature should it be decided to implement it!
By Grey0 at Sep 28, 2024, 6:39 PM
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I think I understand the concern, but I also think that there needs to be some guidance with any new feature, at least from players in positions to use it for plots. Obviously if people start vatting anyone who boos, that's not a realistic response. I think it will self-regulate in that regard.
I also don't think booing performers off stage will happen very often, but there may be concerted efforts to hire hecklers to try and damage shows without going with a molotov.
I feel like assuming the worst case scenario and balancing off of that causes new features to die before they are even released, like with how corporate projects were essentially impossible to steal due to how many stipulations were attached to them in the design process in order to seemingly prevent hellish what-if scenarios. If that makes sense.
By batko at Sep 28, 2024, 6:44 PM
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LEGEND
796 posts
I think they way I'd prefer this to be implemented is that whenever a performance is happening, if anyone uses the words "cheer" or "boo" in a pose, who isn't the performer, then it registers it as a cheer or boo. This way people can still get creative with their poses, instead of just typing >cheer or >boo and calling it a day, which would make performances a lot more boring.
By Emily at Sep 29, 2024, 3:50 AM
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CHUMMER
183 posts
We're hurting for code support right now and so implementing new coded systems or modifying coded systems is difficult.
That said, staff discussed this today and it generated some ideas and interest. We may revisit this at a time where our resources are less strained.
Feel free to keep discussing. :)
By Logic at Oct 13, 2024, 3:25 PM
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ADMIN
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