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Doze Mode
Making 'dozing' more official

If a PC is idle for a good chunk of time (ah hour? Three hours?) they go into a 'doze' mode. They are not disconnected but they no longer get SICs and all speech around them becomes 'something unintelligible'.

The idea here is to make it so that there's not an IC advantage to staying logged in all the time. Keeping honest players honest. There is no temptation to read all the SIC chatter that occurred while you slept or to hear what your roommate conveyed while you were not really playing the game.

At the same time, if there is an OOC reason why disconnecting is bad for you (some ind of network or computing issue or you just like to get back into the action faster), you don't have to. You can stay connected.

I think this is a cool idea and a happy middle ground. I've always found it odd that some people remain online (without going OOC) for days while not playing the game, and I'd like to assume the best, but I think a lot of this is about skimming for what data they missed/FOMO.

What Grey is suggesting addresses the common point that is brought up (computing issues, etc) while eliminating the data sponging aspect.

Wasn't this exact idea suggested a few years back?
@macros

Add

Enter the first step in the sequence exactly as you would type it [or type '.' to complete the sequence]

'look me'

Enter the next step in the sequence exactly as you would type it [or type '.' to complete the sequence]

'.'

Is this supposed to be an automatic macro?

'yes'

Enter the 'trigger' string that this macro should respond to:

WARNING: It is VERY EASY to setup ENDLESS automatic macro loops!

Any automatic macro called more than 100 times will be automatically disabled.

'the TV you see'

what key should this macro be tied to? This is how you run the macro.

EXAMPLE: If you set the key to 'home', you would type '~home' to run it.

'DozeAvoid'

By typing '~DozeAvoid'

or in when you see 'the TV you see'

You will do the following sequence:

look me

Do you wish to save this macro?

[Enter `yes' or `no']

'yes'

I'm not sure what the point is Beepboop. Which would be breaking the @rules if implemented. Even if this wasn't added. Some of us can cleverly circumvent a lot of codded features in this game but that doesn't mean we stop having coded features.

Perhaps you'd be willing to elaborate?

If many people aren't going to be honest, there's no point to be honest, or otherwise, you're going to be left behind.
Plus this would put more stuff on staff's plates, imagine having to keep checking to make sure that they're not afk hourly.
Very well.. Maybe it's time for another idea then! Adjust macros so they don't reset idle timers. :)

Then people would make their characters automatically move into their closet, then out to reset the idle timer, mechanically moving would override it.
I do think this is a good idea. The whole "no point to be honest" thing kinda raises an eyebrow but whatever, you do you. Honestly I don't care a huge amount about people never letting their characters sleep, but I do think it's a bit weird.
Do mods seriously want more responsibility? Having to check on people hourly daily if they seem to be idle for a bit? It'd take a good chunk out of their puppeting time.
I'm like, 99% sure this suggestion was an automatic thing, not something staff does all the time like you're saying.
Why would they have to? This would be an automated system. The game already knows how long you've been idle. Yes, there would be an up front cost in development but after that it would just work outside of those who choose to create anti-idle macros which are already against the rules.

I think it's fair that staff may decide that this isn't worth the man hours to create. But I don't understand this idea that staff would now need to monitor all palyer's idle times and manually put them into doze mode. I suspect I am missing something.

Nonono, they'd have to check to make sure that they're not breaking rules by xhelping to check to make sure that they're not using macro to avoid the system, imagine having to do that hourly daily. It'd get tiresome quick.
…No they wouldn't?
This is something that is already watched as there are already rules against using macros to work around timers. I am not sure there would be any more effort needed than is already given. Unless player A reports Player B for odd behavior that makes them suspect an anti-idle macro and this is, again, already a thing,

Well, I'm distrustful of people, and I have a belief that a higher majority of people would take advantage of things whenever they could, plus how would they be reported if they're going to be living alone to themselves?

How would they know if they're simply being ignored on SIC?

Plus if people assume that you're ignoring them, the result is usually not pretty, what if an employer decided to reach out to talk to you and you wound up ignoring them from being idle?

Or maybe an employer is screaming for helping over SIC that they're being attacked, and whoop.. they died without your character even lifting a finger, high chances that they would get fired for being lazy fucks.

The consequence is already there, people do get punished ICly for going idle and ignoring others' SIC.

And even if they hopped on another alias to be idle without being SIC'd, guess what happens?

Thaaaat's right, other people would check, then hop onto their alias to pose as them and sponge up paydatas.

I wasn't saying that this was the way for people using macros to avoid timers to be caught. I was saying that if this was implemented it may provide some players with the urge to use one when they didn't before and that maybe, initially, a few more reports might be made regarding this kind of thing. AKA, more staff work. I included it to be through, not because I think it will create a significant work load. There simply might be a few more cases noticed by staff or reported by other players.

Still, my take on each…

Well, I'm distrustful of people, and I have a belief that a higher majority of people would take advantage of things whenever they could, plus how would they be reported if they're going to be living alone to themselves?

Maybe the wouldn't be. Maybe some players circumvent this and get a way from it for a while. However, in my experience, staff tends to notice it if a character is at the PRI factory using macros to stay active. Maybe not immediately and every time but m

How would they know if they're simply being ignored on SIC?

I assume you mean ho would my character know if your character was ignoring mine or on a macro? I wouldn't. But if it seemed odd or out of place or a trend, I might note it in case and let staff look into it. I never report things to staff because I know I'm right. I can't know. I report them because it could be an issue and then I let staff handle it however.

Plus if people assume that you're ignoring them, the result is usually not pretty, what if an employer decided to reach out to talk to you and you wound up ignoring them from being idle?

GMs can already see if a PC is idle and check on it before doing puppets most times. Rarely will staff make an NPC angry at a PC for being idle and not answering a SIC. I am not saying it can't happen but not unless it's a pattern or there's more to it than just missing a couple SICs while idle.

Or maybe an employer is screaming for helping over SIC that they're being attacked, and whoop.. they died without your character even lifting a finger, high chances that they would get fired for being lazy fucks.

Again, I've not seen this being a issue. It could be if enough other factors come into play but one time missing a call for help on SIC doesn't tend to make a faction hate you.

The consequence is already there, people do get punished ICly for going idle and ignoring others' SIC.

I've never seen this happen unless it's a long term pattern and even then there's usually a bit more to the story than you were idle so the IC world will make you pay. I'm not sure why you think this but it's not been my experience.

And even if they hopped on another alias to be idle without being SIC'd, guess what happens?

Thaaaat's right, other people would check, then hop onto their alias to pose as them and sponge up paydatas.

This is a risk of repercussions coming from other PCs an, yes, those are, in my mind, the real danger or risk. And I'm not sure this hop on any unused alias to sponge data tactic is used frequently or enough to suggest that a doze mode might not be helpful.

All of those things happened to me, and I've been around for a long while, so nevertheless, I've learnt not to idle and log out whenever I'm not doing anything.
I roll my eyes a bit when I see a bit that never logs out, but I think filtering roleplay from being seen by players ought to be the untouched third rail of the game's design and the fact that it is used with such casualness in watch/appear should not be taken as precedent to use it elsewhere. I think this type of mechanic does much more subtle harm to the overall player experience then I think is really appreciated on the dev side.

I'd much sooner just see characters require sleep or face stacking stat debuffs.

this is silly
I like this idea. Especially because monitoring certain things while also tuned into SIC is pretty advantageous. Listening to public SIC alone is pretty advantageous.

Even more, I think it would be so nice if we could have an option for the game to disconnect us after whatever amount of time in doze mode. It's so annoying thinking you logged out and then you return to realize your characters just been drooling there for 9 hours overnight. Opt in.

I don't have a strong opinion on the original idea one way or another. However I wanna respond to some of the responses to it.

We already monitor for people abusing macros to stay unidle and have systems that alert us. Something like what is described here is definitely possible and fairly easy to implement. There would be no additional burden on staff, other than the normal warning not to abuse macros.

I don't agree with the race to the bottom argument of some people will abuse it so we shouldn't do it. People that abuse systems are identified and warned and if the behavior continues suspended. People gaming the system isn't a reason to not try to improve the system.

I am of the opinion that you could find a solution here without heavily penalizing one way or the other.

When a person fails to adequately rest in the real world they suffer from a number of symptoms that probably don't need to be listed. I am also not suggesting they be applied. What I think everyone can agree on is when you don't rest your body and your brain, fatigue can and will hit you like a speeding Holden.

What I would think would be appropriate is a fatigue hit to those who elect to stay connected to data-stream. I also know in some cases it is easier for people to stay logged on and not disconnect. I find myself idle all the time in this manner but typically remember to come back and disconnect. With a major to mild fatigue hit you present the person staying logged in with a "consequence" that is easily treated and makes sense to the realism junkies. You also in turn create a greater demand for the relevant narcotics associated with fatigue.

I am weary of a 'fatigue' mechanic or mandatory sleep.

Not everyone plays the same. From what I recall we for real have some players who work some crazy jobs that leaves them out in the middle of ocean for X months at a time and they might have a couple weeks a year to play (as an example).

If they want to binge the game for half a week, taking naps at best and fueling themselves with caffeine, I don't want them to be hampered by a requirement that they be logged off X time per X time period or be ICly penalized.

Even if they don't have a crazy job like that, I am not a fan of the game penalize anyone who wants to binge the game here and there. I for sure hope that they are balancing their life and seeing to their health but that's not the game's job to do. And while I for sure want to see the game not penalize those who choose not to play the game full time, I also don't want to penalize those who do choose to play that way.

I feel like working on an oil rig in the ocean for a few weeks at a time are very very fringe cases. If it's an issue of limited time to play due to these things, perhaps we should review anything that has a time-related relationship such as rent? I think fatigue, which is an easily solved "consequence" to the complaints of staying up for five days on Sindome without actually being on Sindome (That's what we were discussing, right?) , is an authentic solution. The person who works out in the ocean can then take a nap, come back, read whatever they want, and take a nice dose of caffeine and drive on which would in a small way help advance someones economic situation in the game by way of drug sale.

I feel like it's strange to promote "garbled language", which essentially results in wasted time for the person you described. As an aside, I feel like you are correct, it is not Sindome's job to force healthy habits upon people, but maybe it would serve the community if it gave an option that was healthier, whatever that may be?

Two possible solutions for sure. I prefer those who the game has verified as being idle to go into a 'doze' over those who want to binge Sindome for whatever reason being told they have to stop playing the game every X hours or get an IC debuff. That's just my preference though.

I remember suggesting a similar idea a long time ago in response to the assertion that many people idle just to soak up public SIC for data and watch cameras. I don't think that's actually what many people are doing, but it's a neat suggestion either way and has the potential to quell some of those fears. I think private SICs and phone calls should pierce the veil, though, as some people will idle waiting for others to contact them.
I'm pretty skeptical that anyone is playing Sindome regularly for more than 36 hours at a stretch or that that would be withing the bounds of like, medical possibility, but I also think all the options here are basically solutions in search of a problem.

I have logs from 2019 that are like hundreds of thousands of lines of pre-rework robot surveillance, hours and hours and hours of it from far more invasive means than what players are thinking of here, and the practical data value of all of it combined was basically zero in situ let alone post facto the next day or next week.

I strongly suspect players who keep characters logged in (once sponging violations stop being a problem) is moreso because there's no good asynchronous comms in the game and it's one way of getting messages off playing time, but even that comes at a steep cost of other stuff going unanswered.

because there's no good asynchronous comms in the game

I feel this so much. I know there's the grid but I TRULY hate using it. I've played characters who simply refused to because I don't like it. This is part of why I would love the grid to be brought into the MOO and off the website. I know there's text messaging on phones but that's a bother for many IC reasons. Something I rarely see any but corpies and long standing powerful characters buy into. There are a few in game items but they tend to be expensive or burdensome.

At the same time, this kind of work around to facilitate communication isn't something I like. It feels gamy and meta to me personally. At the same time I see the perceived need for this. I don't think it is a need but sometimes a pain point is so great that avoiding it starts to feel like a necessity.

Maybe I'll make an idea thread asking players to throw out idea son how one might thematically improve this aspect of the game. I'm sure some out there have some awesome ideas.

The texting is quite a bit more accessible now that you do not need a Progia-11 to do it, but agreed that it's frustrating (though not as frustrating as gridmail).

That being said, I do find it tacky when people idle all day in character to sponge SIC, cameras, or other data, and I do think there are at least some people who do this and utilize what they learn in their reviews, which to me is sort of a grey area of an advantage over others that do not do this.

That is why I like the idea of this doze mode or something that just puts you into the OOC room if you are over a certain amount of time idle. If you really need to stay on for some connection or computer reason, then there shouldn't be any problem with limiting the IC info you receive while you are 'online' but hours idle.

Totally agree. Not being able to send and receive SICs with one player offline feels very much like a legacy of zero-storage MU* code rather than a core design decision.

In another thread it was discussed how problematic connection interruptions become to playing Sindome and my strong, strong suspicion is that an offline comms memory for every character would eliminate anyone staying logged in for kicks essentially overnight while making the game enormously less FOMO in the same stroke.

This definitely feels like a case to me where spending dev time to enable better functionality for all players solves far more than spending dev time curtailing them.

Sorry my last was directed at Grey, my bad for no @.
Though players getting shifted to @OOC when sufficiently idle like BigArg describes is completely acceptable to me and doesn't present any of the issues I see with obfuscating feedback. Actually it would make @ooc a whole lot safer for player emergencies in the bargain and would be a nice compromise of ideas here.
If we brought the grin into the game we could browse it on our progia's
we already have terminals for this, no need to keep swarming progias with loads of apps that lock you out of doing anything while they run (imagine having to log back into the grid through 5 separate clunky menus every time someone wants to say hello to you)
Skimmed a lot of the more recent posts in this but, after double-checking the rules I wanted to add my support for some kind of function similar to the OP's (if feasible to code) but also mention that a simpler solution would be to have people automatically DC or be moved into @OOC after let's say an idling period of 3+ hours.

As it stands with the rules you are automatically disconnected after 24 hours, but it's very easy for someone on a schedule to remain perpetually logged in with that time frame to the point that certain characters appear to never sleep and instead sit within SIC signal 24/7 which is unrealistic and honestly, kind of game-y. Just because you can doesn't mean you should, and it puts players who do choose to log off at a disadvantage. TLDR drastically reducing how long you can idle for prior to disconnection or tossing people into @OOC after x hours of idling seem like the simplest solutions.

We've had 1, 3 and 12 hour idle timers in the past and found that people were most satisfied with 24 hours. At this point I don't want to change that. We've talked about fuzzing out SIC messages in the past as well, but there was never a strong enough sentiment to put time into it.

It's actually more complicated then just not sending public SIC messages.

- Does the alias still show on network via who?

- Can you private SIC them, even if they aren't on who?

- Do you show them the private SIC?

- What about encrypted SIC?

And then additional considerations that I expect people would bring up:

- Do we apply this to phones?

- What about people talking in rooms?

- What about nearby shouts?

- Gunshots? Car alarms?

- Quick term notifications?

If we were going to implement the SIC portion, I don't see why we wouldn't implement the rest of these to go the full distance.

In the end though, I'm not sure if it's worth the effort. And I don't know if it would help, hinder, or be a net neutral impact on RP when you take all things into consideration.

I completely understand the reservations on implementing a new system to counteract this, it would be a much bigger production, but the 24 hour thing is hard to wrap my head around. Very easy to exploit, PCs can essentially watch sic/cameras all day and night every day of the week and there's nothing to stop them from using what ever data they get IC despite having been gone or asleep at the time. If someone's been idle for over 3 hours they're probably no longer there or paying attention to the game, why keep them connected?

If it won't change though then so be it, I was just always under the impression idling for long periods like that was frowned upon and had a few "OH SHIT" moments when I realized I left myself logged in.