Increase the UE Cap

I believe increasing the cap would help encourage experimentation with different skills and potentially result in more diverse conflict.

In addition, because many mechanics are very obfuscated, some seem more complete at first than they actually are. It is possible for someone to not realize the lack of serious usability of a skill due to mechanics being absent or unfinished until after they’ve invested large amounts of UE.

This results in newer players with first characters who last a long time being more heavily impacted by the cap than older players who have had prior characters and better know the mechanics and systems. Even if the cap was increased, those newer players would still be more impacted, but they would also have more leeway.

But agree.

https://sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/lower-the-ue-cap-2252/

It would probably be better to continue them rather than change the topic here.

I am also of the opinion that you should have to hire other characters to do things for you if you've not invested in a specific area. Skillsofts fill in the gap and I'd love for the time to load a soft to be reduced in some cases but that's for a different topic.

There have been numerous examples throughout the years of one character doing it all using even skillsofts and closing their circle off from 'outside interference' completely. That just isn't good for conflict or the economy.

What should also be considered is the impact on the world if characters were able to get dramatically more UE. If I were to invest for all these additional years of UE into a certain area, how would a NPC ever match up?

There are already characters who can run circles around most NPCs in their respective fields and while that's both desirable and appropriate for a character who's made the appropriate investment, what happens if the world has to be scaled to these characters more overpowered stat sheets?

And holy shit this is long, I'm sorry. I just got started and couldn't stop.

-I would be in favor of increasing the Max UE to seven years, with mandatory sunsetting at eight.

-I would also be in favor of retroactively awarding UE who have been at cap for extended time to expand out the new "end game" field.

-I would be in favor of throttling the UE as 4/day for the first two years, 3/day for the next two, 2/day for the next two, with a final drip feed of 1 UE per day for the final year.

So for starters this isn't the first time I've danced with 24/7 RPI systems over a slow burn time span. I'm used to playing characters that survive 5+ years, accumulating XP over that entire time span and interacting with multi-player and character development over that time.

At max UE… I feel weak.

As in, I do not believe that I can take the entirety of my character, shuffle him around down to the core... and come out with a Seven. If I were to place where I feel my power level would be, it would be approximately like... a gang LT who might be King one day... maybe. I may be able to build a hyper-focused character that can plot to slap the crown off a gang's King, but at max UE, there is no way to actually hold it before NPC theater bitch smacks you back to where you belong.

In terms of extended slow burn character RP, I honestly feel like a midbie. Someone who is trusted as being competent to do their job effectively (whatever that is), who some may look up to, but not quite a real power holder yet.

Knowing where the UE runs out now, I really don't feel like I'm ever going to actually matter in terms of power, and I'll never be a Seven, Apollo, or Chrome Lord. Sindome IS a power fantasy, but as it stands you're only going to be as powerful as a minor supporting character. At best you are the really trusted henchman that John Wick murders halfway through act 2. Really awesome fight scene, but you were never really going to compete with actual legends.

And that really kills my engagement to know I'll forever be a schlub.

So yes, the max UE definitely needs to be raised to actually allow an "end game" to exist. The fish tank is way too small when some of the bigger fish are carnivorous.

I honestly feel sorry for non-combat characters who hit max UE. There is zero room for skills involving self defense. A shroud looks at you funny? Red screen. At least combat characters can develop a small hobby as a side biz by the time you hit max UE depending on the skillsoft. Non-combatants can't. You can be good at combat and competent in non-combat, or good at non-combat and absolutely worthless in combat. And you will never be a God in either.

Also, the current cap I say only encourages min-maxing. Because the second I saw my count-down appear I haven't spend a single UE. Why? Terrified to. Suddenly those "drops in the bucket" will no longer be there. And then I'm stuck with all the mistakes I made I made creating this character and the complete inability to work on those flaws and fix them. What if I suddenly realize I need to learn XYZ but I'm locked out of UE? Yeah, I have my one respec but three years in and I still don't know what the fuck I'm doing spending my UE or building a character. So I'm hyper paranoid of spending a single UE at this point, which is causing me to want to min/max every last drop. I don't have enough spackle to repair all the holes in my foundation, let alone grow. So I'm stagnating because I don't know how to min/max properly.

Also, let's get into the reality of what end game appears to be, in that only three things matter.

-The money in your bank.

-The amount of chrome your endurance stat can handle.

-The various toys you have locked away in your impenetrable vault of an apartment. Some of which are only available via staff fiat.

And if you're going to say that RP and allies matter too, please see money in the bank. Allies can be purchased.

At the current Max UE level, I'm betting there really isn't much room for variance in combat builds. I'm willing to be it forces a Meta, and even then I'm willing to bet that the top prized weapons and armor are being wielded by people who just barely have the stats and skills to actually use them effectively. Like I said, UE wise we are at mid-tier boss in a Cyberpunk story, so someone capable of walking around in xo5 with a mini-gun is a great boss fight, but probably isn't good at anything else, let alone a fully fleshed out character. Dungeon boss. Not raid boss.

Which ultimately forces chrome to compete. But that's also a meta in of itself. Which of the required combat chromes do you have? How much can you replace on a wipe? How much of your UE do you want to devote to endurance to be able to shove just a little bit more in?

I get now why there's burnout among the players who are complained at about not doing anything. And I'm also sorry because I was one of those complaining. Like, what the fuck do you want them to do when they actually can't do anything? There is no room for growth, no way to become more than what you are, and you're going to be forever locked in stasis until you inevitably quit or someone does eventually perm you because they want your seat at the table since they think you're not doing enough. Clawing your way to the top of the ladder to find a ceiling not of glass but of brick must suck when the person behind you begins to sink their claws in. And you can't exactly ICly learn something new to counter burnout so fuck it.

I also get why everyone runs around under shrouds afraid to show their faces, because yeah unless someone is walking around fully geared xo5 combat ready then three gangers on a bad day could mean a 100K wipe to the baddest of the badass combat machines out there because they're actually glass cannons. Better to be an anonymous shroud.

The fish tank NEEDS to be expanded to actually accommodate players who survive to an "end game" where their abilities to do their job actually start to become things of legend ICly. This way you have a new play space for the big boys to fight in with the corporate backed warfare like heavy weapons, vehicles, AV's, stuff like that. I'm eating my own words after calling them the big boy club toys... because there is no big boy club, because there are no big boys anymore.

Also, in terms of UE rate... probably a quicker onboarding of UE to get to the "mid" range would be appropriate, which is why I suggested different titration rates. This will speed players to a point where they can actually start to feel the difference of growth quicker. It might help for player retention if combat characters can get good at combat just a little bit faster, but taper off the gains as players inevitably start to get further and further into their respective curves.

But yeah, there needs to be more expansion for growth for characters that do stick around. Sindome is supposed to be a cyberpunk power fantasy. I do not want to risk it all, betray everything, and fight tooth and claw just to be trapped in middle management forever.

I want to be a legend.

All but about 3-5 NPCs in the game are above the max UE cap. Characters like Seven, Anderson, Hiro, Ivan, Rez, Mia Romano, Amon Janz, etc were all within the UE cap.

Being in the "big boy club", unfortunately, means being able to lose it all and claw your way back. I do agree the gameplay loop leaves a lot to be desired these days, and frankly, I cannot respond to your entire post without creating an equally long tangent.

As someone who knows the skills/stats system in and out - I could create an invincible douche bag legend with little effort, but I find other more nuanced skills to far more gratifying to me personally. I recommend focusing on what makes the game rewarding and fun to you.

That said, your opinion and feelings are 100% valid, and I am not here to diminish that fact.

It's not necessarily a strong argument for raising the cap, but I don't personally agree with the common mentality that everyone needs to be reigned into similar limits for things to be fair, or that the game is improved by getting everyone up to a fixed limit as quick as possible. I find it a lot of fun when there's strong differentiation, and think continuous development is more suitable to long form storytelling and player agency.

Continuous development can come in other forms though, that said.

I do agree that would eventually be solved anyway and there would still need to be continuous re-training to keep things lively, but increasing the UE cap by even 500 UE would radically change how a lot of characters stack up against one another and upend the current 'metagame' balance (in the MMO sense, not the cheating sense).

This being said, for the past 10 years we have had to upgrade NPCs stats / skills to constantly deal with the more and more bad ass player base to keep things interesting for those players. I have just finishing going through the majority of NPC groups that see a lot of action (Sinners, Snakes, Arteries, Judges, Agents) and adjusted their stats and skills. This means in some cases the NPCs are not as strong and in some cases they are stronger *sometimes it depends on the situation).

There's a laundry list of legends and legendary conflicts that happened when there was no UE cap. Not that I'm saying there should be done, but I just want to dispel the idea that the cap is saving us from some dramatic negative outcome.

I think there's a strong argument to be made that just the appearance of the cap actually itself creates the idea in players heads that it's something they have to reach and makes their development feel like a slog they have to get through instead of something they just experience as it comes. The cap is for many players the idea of the point they will feel 'ready' and can mint themselves as powerful enough to do whatever, which is a concept that is unintentional reinforced by games like World of Warcraft where characters have to reach the level cap to start playing the 'real game'. It may have had upsides but I do think it came with downsides as well.

That leaves them free to focus on the characters who are trying to climb the ladder. Just imagining what it'd be like to play a fresh character against a group of characters that's been receiving UE for 4+ years just as an example would make me never want to reroll ever again.

It leaves very few characters who are up against all of the rest, again, if talking only about physical confrontation where these characters might die. This is endgame though and I'm not referring to anyone but the characters at the very top.

I say that is nonsense and that the most talented people to ever play the game are playing right now, and if the game can't make something legendary from those ingredients then the chef is at fault. Players need to be given the same tools or equivalent to rise to and succeed those they're expected to measure up to.

I believe progressive (re-)training is absolutely a serious factor in early Sindome's character power, and wide skill spreads were a lesser but still relevant factor. I hope players can give some support to the idea of uncapping the redevelopment limits on forget which in my opinion could dramatically reshape the game and player experiences for the better.

Forget is absolutely my first preference as a way to address this, but making a longer stretch before the UE cap is reached is a solid third or fourth choice in terms of breaking up the status quo.

Alternatively, I LOVE the idea of a truly retired warrior type who is now turning over a new leaf and becoming a decker.

"Hey, you're BOB! Holy SHIT can you shoot this guy for me?"

"Nah…" Bob glares into his QuickTerm, "I don't really do that anymore..."

Or a decker who got so fed up they set down the Term and devoted themselves to being a murderous lunatic seeking revenge for all nerds!

Adding a deeper change potential allows people to keep their beloved characters, their allies and enemies, and explore other archetypes like any human might want to over the years. With any luck, the change will lead to new RP and new fun for what may feel like a stale oldbie char that the player is too attached to to let go of and perm.

I appreciate the admission of the irony of speaking from knowledge. And you are correct. I do latch on to concepts as being the only way it is, because that is the only source that I can speak from. Because I apparently am an extreme outlier in that I have reached max UE on my first character. After three years I really do still consider myself a newbie because I HAVEN'T experienced the breadth of knowledge that everyone apparently has, because I haven't permed and re-rolled. I'm still new to this, and I'm still on my first cup of kool-aide.

And I lean into that. I'm not fully indoctrinated into the Sindome Cult yet, and I have zero qualms of asking why the Emperor isn't wearing his pants when I can't see anything else. And as much as I have a single field of vision about how Sindome operates, so do all the new players who join, burn out after six months, and never come back. I don't have a problem being the outsider home inspector coming in and pointing out the cracks and why they're happening.

And honestly if my perming happened tomorrow, I don't know if I would return to Sindome, knowing how short this ride is. And I do mean short. I'm used to playing characters who exist for 5+ years, receiving experience the entire time. I've started at the bottom where the equivalent of a goblin sneezing on me could put me in a death state. And I've survived to know the power fantasy of people running to get my character when shit hits the fan. Start as a stable boy, rise to knight, to king, to legend. So understand I'm speaking from experience when I say that in term of character development you're all stunted goldfish in a tiny tank.

And yeah, if this is where actual growth stops in terms of character development… I'm very disenchanted by what's on the Sindome box. I feel that Sindome promises an epic cyberpunk fantasy from lvl 1 to 20, and then just stops awarding XP at level 9. Midbie zone. We aren't even approaching epic yet. Fake it til you make it all you want but there are limits.

Like seriously, from my perspective and outlook on power levels, if ceramic katana's are the top tier sword of mythic legend, then even Seven where he's at shouldn't have one. It would be a flashy toy that someone may rip away from him in a heart beat. Weapons like that should be in the hands of people who have A-D in ALL appropriate stats and skills. Personal bodyguard of Rex Gold level of shit. One being in a Max UE's hands would be the equivalent of a light saber falling into the hands of a farm hand. Yeah, a legend may be born but he's just as likely to stare down the barrel of it not knowing what it is.

If it's a once in a lifetime event to see it, I want it in the hands of those who deserve it.

That's honestly why everyone arguing about slashing the prices of weapons to encourage their use. Nobody understands what the midbie vs end game weapons are because THERE IS NO END GAME to compare to. People have gear fear because they have end game weapons their sheets say they honestly shouldn't have. Slither was actually right on point with his estimate of 70K for end game weapons. As it stands now, yeah top tier midbie combat gear would probably run 70K. It might not be a FULL xo3, and definitely not new, but a midbie would have a serious armor piece or two filled out by Protek, and probably a katana. Obviously not ceramic, but yeah. That kit will still run you about that ballpark in price. And as long as you're not dealing with a chromed out assassin wielding a ceramic, you're probably good for any fight that comes knocking.

This is why everyone is complaining about gear shortage because the midbies and the end game are fighting over the same sets of armor and weapons when fresh max UE don't understand it's not for them yet. If xo3 body armor is supposed to be rare, then make sure it stays in the hands of the people who can keep it rare, the end game. When you get to End Game, you'll probably at some point be friends with people who can get you full sets, new. Or you'll have the stat loadout that you can look at your employer and have a point about not being likely to lose it so please requisition one, cost be damned. Gear fear disappears when you know you have the stats to keep the gear.

But now all the weapons and armor are hoarded like they're gold because they're probably the only thing that is keeping the top combatants alive against the other top dogs. Because like I said earlier when UE stops mattering it comes down to what's locked in your closet.

Now, going to point out a few things that were said that I completely agree with.

-Max UE is lvl 80. Yes. Completely agree. If you look back, this tinges how I've argued about and perceived the Syndicates. That if Max UE is where "the real game" begins, then that should be an arbitrary number that one should think they're at before even thinking of doing Syndie plot. At lvl 80 you can start to think of yourself as a mover and shaker baby! I'm now... whatever I am. It gives a false sense that you are somehow... something.

-The players are at fault. Yes. I'm very hesitant to post on these boards because of the toxic attitude that if you're not having fun, or you have a problem, then somehow it's YOUR fault, never the sacrosanct system design. I have legit anxiety everytime I want to express an opinion of something that I think needs to change. I mean, the first reply to my message, the very first statement, is telling me that I don't feel powerful with what I have because I'm the one at fault. Because I haven't rerolled, and rerolled, and rerolled to understand how to actually build a character? It's a fun game, but ultimately it's like playing D&D and being asked to make a character without being allowed the player's guide to actually understand how systems actually work. Even today I'm just throwing some dice that don't have spots on them and hoping for the best. Sindome claims to be newbie friendly but it is NOT.

-Top PVP is stagnant and aiming downwards. Agreed. It's how I perceived it when I was trying to reference a fish tank too small with carnivorous fish. The apex predators at the tippy top have retreated into their corners because it's a stalemate at this point. I'd suspects stats really are a lot closer in spreads so they're all turtled up and they can't touch another without being so exposed as to be taken advantage of. So they just spend their time ensuring that up and comers can't take what's theirs while claiming that they're plotting from the shadows but really they can't move or do anything without the staff puppetting their faction and telling them it's ok else inevitably suck a major L. And since such bloodshed and violence of the top tiers battling it out will inevitably fuck up the entire tiny tank, staff doesn't do this. A bigger UE tank would mean that the apex can grow further to the point that their specializations CAN upset the stalemate of power. And the idea that someone will go Godzilla on immies is countered by a King Kong.

-Takes too long to reach Max UE. Semi-agreed. Your player retention sucks. While I'm all for the slow burn on starting with nothing and rising to become a legend, but the time you spend as nothing is just pain. As someone who didn't latch on to "bouncing back from being permed is fun!" even the 300 roll over doesn't really entice me knowing that 300 really is just a splash in the bucket. My first three months I had barely figured out how to survive week to week so you're just skipping what everyone believes is the tutorial time frame. I'd suggest raising it to 20%.

Also, this is why I suggested changing the rate of UE acquisition to an inverse curve, and increase the amount at character start to 4 for a period of time before slowly throttling down to eventually 1 UE per day. You need to get players into the action FASTER. At four per day, you can quickly build whatever you want to play up to a competent level and start enjoying what that archetype has to offer. It also helps first time newbies be able to at least throw enough UE onto their sheet that someone can come along and help mold them into something useful. Then you get less and less as the days go on and your character ages. This, coupled with the curve, will make accomplishments, skills and stats meaningful again. Imagine being able to finally attain a natural A in a stat, while you're only getting 2 UE per day instead of 3. And yes, the UE never ends but seriously at year 7 what are you buying at one UE per day?

Finally, something I HIGHLY disagree with is expanding the forget system while a cap is in place. It makes the idea of min-maxing even greater as you now get to finagle your skills to fit juuuuust right under the cap like it was a Jenga tower. Against.

Ok. I'm done. Again. I think.

Go out and be epic damnit!

If you want to argue that there should be more clarity on how to spend points then sure. Especially if you want to to something like a hybrid build that's going to be even harder to get right on your first try.

PvP at the top has stagnated though, and it is partially because of the cap. Not because the cap is too low, but because the next generation of characters who will be engaging in endbie PvP haven't even hit the cap yet. It's a long ride. Emphasis on partially because of the cap though. There are other reasons that matter more.

"It's a fun game, but ultimately it's like playing D&D and being asked to make a character without being allowed the player's guide to actually understand how systems actually work. Even today I'm just throwing some dice that don't have spots on them and hoping for the best. Sindome claims to be newbie friendly but it is NOT."

I think the OP and this whole thread is missing this root issue of all of this being that most of us who haven't been playing Sindome for decades have no earthly clue how it works mechanically. I've been on and off for 4 or 5 years now and I still feel like I've got zero idea of how anything really works.

It won't matter if the cap is 100 UE or 1,000,000 UE, any player who's not "in the know" (which is the majority, it seems to me) is gonna feel like they're playing blind and they're frustration will be nearly impossible to avoid.

And lastly, to be frank, anyone who argues against de-obfuscating the system the game runs on is either coming from a stance of wanting others to suffer as they did to learn it or wants to keep their position of security knowing the true meta of dedicating UE and IC funds to the right things to stay above all the newbies, in my opinion. "But I had to learn it the hard way, so you should have to, too!" and "I'll be damned if some newbie's gonna figure out how to match my cyberpunk god character in the next 2-4 years!" is all I hear, and I haven't seen a single argument that pulls me away from that stance.

You are going against people who got mechanics down to science, some of it then sure, passed down icly, and as with any MUD a lot of it passed out oocly. I am not part of any OOC community in sindome, sans popping onto the forums here, but I played many muds/mushes etc with hidden mechanics, it's always the same story.

That is just adding to the gap of new vs old, where old just goes and does character as they OOCly planned, new has to ICly filter through tons of bad data for… Absolutely no gains. IC mentorships should still exist, help to cut time on actual practical use of skill, its future use, limitations etc, but obfuscating mechanics from new players, where old guard knows it in and out is just an uneven playing field, where you transfer knowledge OOCly from playing the game for a long time, which then turns to IC advantages.

In the example you gave where you thought someone had invested less in a skill but was better at it, it was probably because they had the relevant stats higher.

To be good at something you just invest in the stats and skills that are on the relevant archetype. For more specific things you ask a player or a NPC because the confusion is always where you should stop investing.

Saying this is "gatekeeping" is just unfair because we're all dying to give people advice IC. The system being OOCly clearer than ever and there still being this kind of dissatisfaction also leaves me wondering how much information will finally be enough information.

Very few, if any of the players who like there being some level of obfuscation on the game, aren't advocating for it because we want to "gatekeep." SD was just designed around having to figure these things out and even all of the characters reputed to be "legends" had imperfect builds.

If there's someone sitting down calculating how exactly they're going to develop their character they are in the absolute minority. I can only speak for myself as an 'oldbie' but I still build characters by feeling and I also get my ass handed to me when I do something wrong.

It won't matter if the cap is 100 UE or 1,000,000 UE, any player who's not "in the know" (which is the majority, it seems to me) is gonna feel like they're playing blind and they're frustration will be nearly impossible to avoid.

I can't really see how this could be true. If someone just simply curved all the stats and skills there are, they could pass every skill check that exists (at least some of the time). There is a ton of IC and OOC support knowledge to show players how to do things, you can just ask most knowledgeable characters and they will tell you.

I feel like when players say they don't know how to do things they're really kind of saying they want to know how to be better than everyone else at combat, which is always going to be a competitive element that players are going to have to work towards. It's not ever going to be the kind of game where you can just copy a build off the forums and be the top end solo.

Yeah we're talking about a completely different level of transparency here. Some basic descriptions don't really do jack for a newer player coming into the scene who doesn't even know how rolls work and what stats attach to what skills. I still don't know these things. Does AGI apply to this weaponn? What about STR? It's complicated so maybe INT applies? Who knows? And then, what's being contested when I fight or try to pop a car lock or try to discern the wounds on a corpse. Is it a d100 vs. a challenge rating? A d20 contest against a generated roll?

@0x1mm

I get that but you'd still have people griping about spending their first 10,000 UE on useless stuff while the veteran who's seen source code who's able to beat them at the thing they wanted to be good at in less than a 1000 UE. (this is slightly hyperbolic but I think my point is clear)

I've tried a number of times I'd say is pretty high and to this day I haven't gotten a good answer out of anyone regarding even basic mechanical questions. I've even been chastised for even attempting to translate what little I do know into unmistakeable instructions for others asking me for instruction. It's just gatekeeping. It's not the fault of anyone searching for knowledge that this whole community is built around the idea of keeping useful AND COMPLETELY OOC info out of the hands of newer players.

I think we're pretty clear that the majority of folks coming in feel like they're being kept in the dark purposefully and we don't all want to have to spend years brute-forcing an understanding of the game mechanics that could probably be decently summed up in less than few thousand words with some equations sprinkled in.

Also, I have been chastised by other players and staff members for supposedly being too on the nose with both my questions and my answers regarding what stat goes with a skill, what skill applies to a weapon or other piece of equipment, etc. on multiple occassions. It is being purposefully kept unspoken. I am very much not trying to be rude but I don't see this as a point of debate it is a provable fact.

There are definitely some mechanics that are more straightforward than others. My point is that no piece of information on mechanics is sacred and they should all be freely available.

…becoming the optimized best in something by knowing exactly what you need and don't is going to be a challenge players will have to rise to.

Yeah, this is just gatekeeping. Which, if you think it's good, then have your opinion and don't think I'm trying to argue that you can't have it. I disagree fervently, but that's just the way it is. However, this is precisely the root of many people's issues. It is not nor has it ever been fun to spend years on a game just to find out that you're missing some key pieces of the puzzle that your peers have been long on since well before you ever logged into the Dome.

If someone ever wanted knowledge on skills, stats or guidance in the game and they came to ask my last PC I would always spend time helping out. But I didn't always have the energy to figure out who needed it because my character had a lot of other stuff going on…

I just want to repeat what Crashdown said here as well, because it was a major factor with me pretty much abandoning trying to tutor new characters at all and making generic guides instead. The number of characters who will expect to be given detailed information but will show absolutely no patience or value for the time invested gets to be unworkable.

I had so many characters come to my character who was very well known for their archetypes and asked to be taught, and even for the ones who were willing to sit through an hour or several hours of instruction and guidance (most wouldn't), the majority just gave up when they found out they couldn't start doing the thing tomorrow or next week. That's for one of the most advanced archetypes around, if not the most advanced.

Showing real interest and patience and commitment to playing a character longer than it takes for the novelty to wear off goes a long way to making others feel they can invest their time in teaching without it being a gigantic waste for everyone involved.

Still, the archetypes page gives enough info that a new player can look at it and make a reasonable assessment of what pairings are useful in general.

IC trial and error is how you overcome the "I don't know what I'm doing" feeling. Experiment and take risks.

Anyway, I have a feeling UE changes are unlikely, but I'll bring it up at the next staff meeting.