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For a bit more context, see: https://sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/increase-green-crates-payout-3237/#last
Put simply, my main issue is that the mag-levs are too slow. They're so slow to the point where they're a tool of basically desperation and are outright hostile towards anyone who wants to do cross-sector work in short play bursts. Things like the state of Green crate runs are testament to this. I get that the mag-levs are a deliberately crap option to encourage vehicular use and a few jobs like taxis, etc that center around that.
I think that if the levs were 50-75% faster, people might actually use them more frequently and paradoxically, expose themselves to more of the intended risk in using them just by means of them being an actually viable option to travel around. I don't feel like these hustles would suffer as vehicles are immensely safer than taking the lev in practically all circumstances, even if the levs practically teleported people to where they need to go (chokepoints, etc).
Think about it: if the levs are empty almost constantly because people aren't really using them except when they have to, what purpose do characters have to hang around them and cause mischief?
If I have limited time to play, cross-sector work becomes basically untenable. I don't want to spend half of my play session in a station potentially without SICnal waiting for a lev to arrive. Speeding them up would give a much needed boost to mobility early on in a character's life.
By Ameliorative at Apr 22, 2025, 2:38 AM
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SPLATJOB
43 posts
I totally agree with the frustration around the slow mag-levs, especially when you’re on a time crunch. The current state makes it feel like you’re wasting valuable time just waiting. One thing I’d like to add is that, beyond just making the levs faster, there could be more options for streamlining cross-sector work overall. Maybe faster routes, or temporary short-cut zones that pop up depending on certain in-game conditions or events, could make the experience feel less like a grind and more like an opportunity. I know this kind of system would take a lot of work to build, but it’s the kind of thing that could really thrive with the help of the player base. It feels great to know that if you know the right people and put in the effort, work can be made easier and more rewarding, and that kind of collaborative effort adds depth to the RP experience.
By shoesanti at Apr 22, 2025, 3:07 AM
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NEWBIE
12 posts
I think that if the levs were 50-75% faster, people might actually use them more frequently and paradoxically, expose themselves to more of the intended risk in using them just by means of them being an actually viable option to travel around.
I completely agree with this sentiment and that discouraging players from using public transit so to encourage them towards private transit ends up being today a net negative overall even if once it was a net positive.
At a time when the only thing that distinguished bikes or cars or taxis from the starting experience was transit being very slow, it had a lot more merit, but there are almost too many advantageous reasons to use vehicles now and transit being a ghost town is not beneficial to the overall experience of all players.
Negative quality-of-life experiences for players that break up sector travel (inc. traffic) are really holding back newer parts of the game than they are benefiting the old ones.
By 0x1mm at Apr 22, 2025, 3:36 AM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
Waiting for the levs does suck. But man…when you get that first bike and hit the tubes? The joy of flying through the sectors is second to none!
Also don't forget about your friendly Chex drivers! They need your biz!
By JMo at Apr 22, 2025, 9:23 AM
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STREET SAM
433 posts
Chex drivers would still get biz with faster levs. Plenty of reasons why someone might not want to take public transit even if it is fast. Maybe more reasons even if public transit actually has dangerous people taking it.
By Ameliorative at Apr 22, 2025, 9:36 AM
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SPLATJOB
43 posts
The levs are ghost town because vehicles are the meta so anything that makes public transit more viable (and therefore, increase your odds of actually interacting with other PCs instead of everyone being isolated in their indestructible mobile bubbles) is a net positive for the game, in my opinion.
By villa at Apr 22, 2025, 9:39 AM
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GATO
595 posts
I think levs could be kept the same speed if they just put arrival times on signs outside the stations.
Cabs can be expensive and PC cabbies are not always available.
By BubbleKangaroo at Apr 22, 2025, 9:42 AM
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BAKALAKA
123 posts
I see many people utilize and brutalize the levs. There are tools to monitor the lev schedules, too. I see a lot of people on them doing all kinds of rp and activities. I think speeding it up would ironically slow some classic lev action.
By Mindhunter at Apr 22, 2025, 9:47 AM
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CHUMMER
171 posts
Mindhunter brings up a good point, playing around with the times and delays in the levs is so important if you want to do crime in it.
By villa at Apr 22, 2025, 9:48 AM
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GATO
595 posts
Mm, if they cross sectors faster, this leaves little time to actually beat the crap out o someone between stops.
I am honestly unsure on this topic, maybe if we could see what % of people got vehicles of some sorts? I suspect that number to be much smaller than people think.
By Aida at Apr 22, 2025, 9:48 AM
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STREET SAM
406 posts
I don't personally think the very small amount of mugging going on in lev stations is really worth basing other design decisions on, especially since mugging on levs themselves is a more interesting and relevant thing to encourage.
The trouble with Sindome is it often tries to use motivations like 'make X bad so players do Y instead' but this really relies on players being really dedicated to playing so doesn't account well for when Y means 'play something else'.
While I think you can make good arguments that levs being so terrible and time consuming to the average experience will drive other sorts of gameplay with a captive audience, my experience has been its one of several design decisions that gives the wrong impression to new players about the game using time-wasting mechanics everywhere.
There are other mechanics that just take a long real time to use or to play out, things like skillsofts and diseases and nanos as well, but the way crates and levs function are more prone to creating all-attention, time-demanding gameplay and disproportionately impact young characters and new players and give a pretty poor impression of the game's overall design in my opinion.
In an ideal state the game should avoid ever trying to consume players' time artificially in my opinion. It does a very effective job of consuming time organically already!
By 0x1mm at Apr 22, 2025, 1:08 PM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
It can get a little exhausting reading feedback about ideas related to reducing the time-waste involved too, because you have people who (likely in a well-meaning way) suggest things like "invest five weeks of income cap and two weeks of skilling to get a vehicle and never ride the levs again!" or "pay 8-12% of your weekly income cap for a two-way trip to a single sector to another player instead of taking the levs!"
If you told people to do this kind of thing in any other game they'd look at you funny and stop playing…
By Ameliorative at Apr 22, 2025, 1:13 PM
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SPLATJOB
43 posts
Make it so you can buy public transport passes for like 1.5k that last a month that give you unlimited Mag-Lev. Make them physical objects that can be stolen unlike the sic-based passes people get with their jobs. Make the mag-levs 50% faster.
Congratulations. Now you have a quasi-valuable item that people will be carrying on the mag-levs that might be worth mugging off of someone, you've made the mag-levs less annoying, and you now have an IC reason why they're faster- 'New Mag-Lev program injects cash into Mag-Lev upgrades!'
By AdamBlue9000 at Apr 22, 2025, 1:20 PM
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BAKALAKA
95 posts
"I don't personally think the very small amount of mugging going on in lev stations is really worth basing other design decisions on, especially since mugging on levs themselves is a more interesting and relevant thing to encourage"
Do you ride the levs?
It's like a quest in of itself for me to not get dipped, bludgeoned, or murdered. Maybe it's just me that witnesses all the insanity that takes place there.
By Mindhunter at Apr 22, 2025, 1:29 PM
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CHUMMER
171 posts
Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet as I didn't bother reading all the comments but the levs seem to stop at different stations for different periods of time. On one station, it stops for a VERY short time. Perhaps some should even stay longer, yet shorter in other places.
By Veleth at Apr 22, 2025, 1:41 PM
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ACE KOOL
624 posts
Do you ride the levs?It's like a quest in of itself for me to not get dipped, bludgeoned, or murdered. Maybe it's just me that witnesses all the insanity that takes place there.
Small in the sense that the amount that happens isn't extremely important to the overall economy, not small in the sense that characters don't experience it. Lev riders are definitely preyed upon disproportionately heavily at lev stations I just don't think the outcomes of that are so particularly important to the game they need to be preserved and that more characters using the system overall because it's more useful is somewhat preferable to it be avoided unless there are no other options.
I feel transit being more useful and crime being better supported are not mutually exclusive.
By 0x1mm at Apr 22, 2025, 2:16 PM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
I say make the levs slightly faster and put holosigns up with the ETA and number of the next train coming to a station. Also, make vehicle theft easier.
By Thrillimanjaro at Apr 22, 2025, 2:25 PM
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WAGE SLAVE
27 posts
The levs are public transit in a cyberpunk future where corporations don't really give a shit about the public. They aren't meant to be fast. The city is huge. It is supposed to take time, and an amount of effort to traverse it.
By Slither at Apr 23, 2025, 6:29 AM
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JUSTICE
5,159 posts
Slither, I really you think you should consider if The Vision is actually fun to engage with. Yeah it makes sense thematically that the Juniors are late to work because of the slow levs, but that doesn't mean it's a fun and engaging mechanic.
By Eve at Apr 23, 2025, 6:34 AM
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BAKALAKA
123 posts
You don't have to pay for two ways, if you know what you're doing, and that's without the sleaze system. And there's an item that lets you carry more than one crate at once without requiring to buy a vehicle.
By Beepboop at Apr 23, 2025, 6:36 AM
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SOLO
321 posts
There are a lot of things that aren't 'fun' about the game, but contribute to the vibe the game is going for and add roadblocks (literal or figurative) for players to surmount, goals for players to attain, or pitfalls for players to plot to avoid. Getting lost in the badlands and dying from exposure, drowning in the sewers, being killed by a giant rat, ganger tolls, traffic, WJF fines, disease, limited supply for items and high demand, having to update your clone, DCD, cannibals, the list goes on and on.
I'm sorry that this and other things cause OOC frustration. I would ask that people try to shift their perspective from 'this takes time OOCly and that is frustrating' to 'this is part of life in the world my character lives in' and start to think about how the character feels about it, if there is anything they can do about it, or do to change their situation so they don't have to deal with it. How is it impacting their mood? How is it impacting their goals? How can roleplay come from it?
There have been several posts the past couple months that propose stripping away things that set the theme, vibe, tone (whatever you want to call it) in service of making the game easier or faster or more convenient. In some cases, I can understand where folx are coming from, in other cases, it feels like a desire to strip away the parts of the game that add an amount of risk, vibes, or IC reasons for frustration in service of a more streamlined player (not character) experience that doesn't serve the theme.
By Slither at Apr 23, 2025, 6:47 AM
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JUSTICE
5,159 posts
Getting lost in the badlands and dying from exposure, drowning in the sewers, being killed by a giant rat, ganger tolls, traffic, WJF fines, disease, limited supply for items and high demand, having to update your clone, DCD, cannibals, the list goes on and on.Some of these are comparable I guess in that they encourage you to interact with other players as an alternative and provide some setting dressing.
We aren't getting this from the mag levs. You just wait somewhere (with nearly half of the locations you wait at possibly not having any signal at all) for upwards of quarter of an hour and then you either miss them or you get on and get moving. The wait isn't really doing anything to help dress the setting. As I wrote earlier, if the mag-levs teleported you to Gold immediately they'd still be contentious because they require you to go out of your way to a predictable location with questionable safety. You're still exposed getting to and from the stations - all of this happens whether they take 15 minutes or whether they take 5 minutes.
If anything this delay is making people use them less. So they're less dangerous than they should be! The implementation of them is taking away from the setting instead of adding to it. It's making poorer characters more susceptible to crime (and more susceptible to -do- crime) move around and interact with the world less.
I'd recommend just making the lev times a maximum of 5 minutes. Maybe even try it temporarily and see if it helps.
By Ameliorative at Apr 23, 2025, 8:12 AM
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SPLATJOB
43 posts
How do you know if people aren't using the levs?
I think Slither is 100% correct. There are tools you can use to track where the lev is that is accessible by everyone.
By Mindhunter at Apr 23, 2025, 8:25 AM
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CHUMMER
171 posts
As I wrote earlier, if the mag-levs teleported you to Gold immediately they'd still be contentious because they require you to go out of your way to a predictable location with questionable safety. You're still exposed getting to and from the stations - all of this happens whether they take 15 minutes or whether they take 5 minutes.
Yep, that's right. Your character is exposed. Other characters can come at you. Your character isn't safe. It's something that requires planning, and puts you in danger. That's the point.
By Slither at Apr 23, 2025, 9:43 AM
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JUSTICE
5,159 posts
How do you know if people aren't using the levs?
Because there was four times as many discount motorcycles for sale this year as there was players to buy them. Foot traffic starkly declined after the vehicle overhaul made them much more accessible and affordable to all characters and their usage swelled massively. I don't see this as a problem overall but there has absolutely been a decline in general foot traffic in the game and especially so with corporate characters and midbie Mixers.
I don't think that bell can really be unrung, but if I was looking for good targets of criminal exploitation I wouldn't be spending time looking for them at the lev stations anymore.
By 0x1mm at Apr 23, 2025, 2:17 PM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
I think some of you look way to analytically into things and I don't really believe you have access to raw data that displays lev travel if it even exists. I see people on the levs just as often as I don't.
By Mindhunter at Apr 23, 2025, 5:15 PM
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CHUMMER
171 posts
I do not really want to comment on this too heavily, for IC reasons, but yes… the levs are still utilized. Maybe not as heavily as they used to be, but the environment (outside of vehicle availability) has also changed.
By Quotient at Apr 23, 2025, 5:17 PM
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STREET SAM
454 posts
I think some of you look way to analytically into things and I don't really believe you have access to raw data that displays lev travel if it even exists. I see people on the levs just as often as I don't.
No one claimed they weren't being used at all, just that usage had gone down over the years which is simple for anyone to experience playing over many years.
I can easily (and did) look at my logs from 2018/2019 and search for all the lev station rooms and print out the bits present and see more characters present on average in January 2019 then January 2024. More subjectively I got stolen from/mugged/killed 8 times in them in 2019 and 1 time in 2024, over somewhat similar time periods (~3-4 months). Of course player activity of all kinds is also down since then so it's not like slow levs alone killed lev station activity but there were changes in activity levels.
By 0x1mm at Apr 23, 2025, 6:20 PM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
grep -rn -e "^North Tamiya Station" -e "^Ashlin Street Station" -e "^Fallout Station$" -e "^New Light Station" -e "^Soma Station" -e "^Cordoba Station" -e "^Acadia Station" -A 12 *
By 0x1mm at Apr 23, 2025, 6:54 PM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
So… these are subjective to how many times you have personally stood at the lev station and not game-wide statistics?
I'm really not trying to be rude at all, but it just feels weird that people even keep details like this and it sounds a little obsessive. I feel like so many of these minute details receive essays about why they are bad for the game or whatever and it really takes more time away from actually playing sindome to read and discuss sindome. Sorry for getting caught up in these discussions.
By Mindhunter at Apr 23, 2025, 7:05 PM
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CHUMMER
171 posts
So… these are subjective to how many times you have personally stood at the lev station and not game-wide statistics?
Is there some other type of data I could reasonably provide in support of my opinions? Because there have been a lot of changes wrought from player opinions that weren't supported by massive data analytics, so it seems to be an odd bar to set now.
I'm really not trying to be rude at all, but it just feels weird that people even keep details like this and it sounds a little obsessive.
I gave my subjective impression from my experienced play and you asked for raw data to support that impression, so I did in the best way I could think of.
By 0x1mm at Apr 23, 2025, 7:17 PM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
> Yep, that's right. Your character is exposed. Other characters can come at you. Your character isn't safe. It's something that requires planning, and puts you in danger. That's the point.
And one of the points that I'm making is that quicker lev transit (either via availability or travel time) gets people interacting with this more instead of less. I'm not trying to make the levs safer! The opposite, in fact.
If I wanted to make them safer I'd just not be saying anything at all. I must've taken a lev upwards of thirty or fifty times in my time playing so far and I've yet to encounter a single (visible) person on them.
By Ameliorative at Apr 24, 2025, 3:50 AM
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SPLATJOB
43 posts
By 0x1mmgrep -rn -e "^North Tamiya Station" -e "^Ashlin Street Station" -e "^Fallout Station$" -e "^New Light Station" -e "^Soma Station" -e "^Cordoba Station" -e "^Acadia Station" -A 12 *
By Quotient at Apr 24, 2025, 9:55 AM
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STREET SAM
454 posts
I'd definitely believe the percentage of the game population using the lev has decreased. I think it's a good thing.
Safety aside, lots of people have limited windows of activity. Whether they save time by using a Chex, getting a ride from a chum with a vehicle, or get one themself, they're saving themselves time that the levs tax. Even if you know when a lev will arrive the time window might eat even more of the time you needed to accomplish something.
Faster levs might not see more use, and it's not just because of safety.
By BubbleKangaroo at Apr 24, 2025, 10:27 AM
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BAKALAKA
123 posts
I think the levs are slow for a reason. That reason is to make it so that people doing shady things are remotely catchable if they don't have a personal vehicle and are forced to ride them. It also gives plenty of time for things to go down on levs between stops. There are faster modes of travel from any sector. Part of the fun is discovering them and investing in them (where applicable). As it stands, I don't think the schedule should be sped up.
I could get behind visual schedules at the stations though. Knowing the schedule without signs is helpful if you're enterprising enough, but I don't think it'd be bad to make it easy to know either.
By RatchetEffect at Apr 25, 2025, 5:54 PM
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STREET SAM
402 posts
Reducing the travel time between lev stops would be bad, imho.
Yes, you can get mugged at the lev station. But what about combat on the levs themselves? Often times this is done to prevent escapes. Plus, badass train combat. Reduce the time, and this becomes a moot point (except the badass train combat. Lemme fight on top of the lev!)
Not to mention. The levs run on a really easy to decipher schedule that is slightly IC so I am not sure I can say it. Changing the travel time (I assume you don't want to mess with stop times just the 'city zooming by' time) Would make this harder on new players, imho. Since the current schedule takes like, elementary school critical thinking to work out.
And finally. Some of my best interactions happened because I was waiting at a lev and rped with someone, or spoke to a rando on a lev, which dominoed into a plot. If you make the lev rides really short, these interactions are less incentivised.
By SmokePotion at Apr 25, 2025, 6:08 PM
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BAKALAKA
144 posts
I love the levs. And I love them because I hate them. They are everything that people are commenting here. Slow. Time consuming. Vulnerable.
There have been times in recent history where my character has literally had to find places to stash things in one sector, because they did not want to take the risk of losing them while riding the lev. There have been times where they made multiple trips to move quantities of objects, instead of taking the risk of moving them all at once.
Beyond that, the suck factor of the lev has encouraged them to RP and find other ways to get in between sectors that do not involve using the levs.
It has been said before, but it bears repeating.
If your character is struggling with something in game, be it levs, getting dipped, not having a job, whatever… use that as a catalyst for RP. Bitch out loud about it. Given that this game is going on what, almost 30 years at this point, I can practically guarantee that there is another character who has overcome whatever frustration any given character is currently facing.
By Hek at Apr 25, 2025, 6:48 PM
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LEGEND
1,167 posts
A big part of there overall travel time is how many stations there are, and while the travel time serves to condense players together the station splitting does the opposite. There might be as many stations as players using them each day. I wonder if one station per sector would end up making them both more convenient and more risky and more populated simultaneously?
By 0x1mm at Apr 25, 2025, 7:56 PM
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LEGEND
2,859 posts
As a compromise, could the mag-lev progia app be perhaps made a lot cheaper? Like maybe 500 chyen or 1k? More people knowing where the levs are means more shenanigans and it also ties into a commonly stolen/traded thing.
By Ameliorative at May 1, 2025, 6:35 AM
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SPLATJOB
43 posts
Just my personal experience, but whenever I've taken the lev, I literally just don't play the game while I sit and wait for it to show up. I switch to a different tab and do something else. There's zero engagement to be had standing in a lev station for half an hour aside from randomly checking it every few minutes to see if the lev is there, then going back to whatever you're filling the time with.
Yeah there's the argument to be made that good players can make their own fun things to do while waiting, I guess. I don't know that just cutting the time down would be a good fix for this, but I can't deny it's not an issue. Honestly just having more ways to fill the time in game would be nice. Hell put Snake on progias or something, I don't know.
By Emily at May 1, 2025, 11:55 PM
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CHUMMER
183 posts
Sounds like you need a copy of King of the Mix :) Play some dope wars while you wait for the lev.
I'm not against making the progia app cheaper, or putting signs in the station, that seems fairly common sense as a change.
I don't think we can realistically predict the time of the train arrival though. As it's on a rotation moving trains from station to station. And the MOO isn't always the best with accurate times. I'll add it to my list.
By Slither at May 2, 2025, 11:29 AM
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JUSTICE
5,159 posts
I suppose now that it got a price reduction, King of the Mix isn't an insane suggestion, lol. Guess I'll try it out :)
By Emily at May 2, 2025, 11:32 AM
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CHUMMER
183 posts