Where do we draw the line, as a community? Is it JUST lyrics that are fine? Or is all of the above and more also acceptable?
I've used it to suggest alternatives to descriptions I've given it before, but I find that I don't like how AI writes enough to ever use it for much.
To be transparent, I was recently told by someone IC that they would "Ignore this ever happened and see me in six months" after they accused me of initiation conflict. So, I think we've reached a pretty low bar and should aspire to raise it as a community without turning it into a police state.
I like writing, rhyming, et cetera so I tend to write my own shit. But I'm not really gonna judge people for using it, though maybe using it for everything is a bit much.
AI is killing artistry and creativity here in general and I don't know why people would want to not write in this game that is all about writing but it is what it is.
Shaming them IC is the best we can do, I think. Like telling people who write clearly chatgtp-ripped reviews and newspapers that their writing sucks and has no soul.
Doing it with descriptions and nakeds though is a bit harder to shame in a way to make it obvious to the person what you're shaming them for though.
I don't mind AI being used for editing or for suggestions though. Not really any different from using something like Grammarly because it's not really doing the work for you, most of it is still in your hands.
Generally, if I notice someone has AI sounding descriptions or they mass produce mediocre AI generated clothes and art, that's enough for me to write off RPing with them for good. It's overall somewhat damaging to the creativity present in the game and in the case of some skills (art) is kind of just cheating those who actually put in effort.
I'm not going to suggest someone *be* a doctor in order to roleplay one, and I won't shame someone who may not be the best at writing descriptions for using a tool to help them play the character they want, either. Whether another player chooses not to pay chy for something that character designed is one thing, but full on not engaging with a character because you don't like that they used a tool, or saying that using GPT'd descriptions marks that character as a target?
Your prerogative, but kind of a dick move, imo. Let people enjoy things without holding up a stick saying 'You have to be this skilled of a writer to interact with me.'
If you are moved by a description, a song, a grid post or a flyer, negatively or positively, why does it matter if it was hand written or ai assisted? It's an assistive tool designed to save time and to enable people to do more.
If as a result they create bland, boring things, call them out on that, that's very ic thing to do, or if they create insane amounts of content in unrealistically short time.
I definitely use it a lot for a lot of long form writing because as someone with dyspraxia I cannot write a coherent paragraph together.
The primary 'tell' for me would be creative output because there have been creative writers in the game of every skill level and distinguishing average human prose and average LLM prose is pretty hard but the amount of work that players can produce is always pretty consistent (or at least in the same range) and when a character suddenly has ten times the creative output of the best players previously, or ten times faster a creative output, it's not exactly a World's Greatest Detective to crack that mystery.
If you use AI to pad the word count of your work, reconsider, please. You don't need more words, this is not a writing assignment, and I think I speak for many people when I say that I vastly prefer much more concise clothing, tattoos, paintings, etcetera, that is structured in a pleasingly written way.
Ultimately write how you like, and make the art you like, but if you ever felt like using AI is necessary due to your inability to write an especially long description of a piece of clothing or other artwork, own your conciseness, call it minimalist, focus more on whether it is interesting to read instead of focusing on pumping out more details and words.
And I like to think that my vision shines through just fine.
This will be my last chime in here as… Yeah, I work in creation of AI tools and the blanked AI hate is giving be PTSD hah. No hate, I get why people take such strong stance, even if I strongly disagree with it.
Using AI tools does not diminish the value of those who choose to create their descriptions, words, songs entirely from scratch.
Please have the courtesy not to diminish the creativity of those who choose to use AI tools.
All things in moderation. Please be kind to each other.
I disagree. It literally and actively diminishes the creative efforts of humanity because it was stolen from the collective creative efforts of humanity for the sake of naked profiteering towards the goal of elimination of the masses in the oligarch controlled future.
Telling stories about a cyberpunk dystopia should at least make people aware of the dangers and costs of contributing towards that sort of outcome. People might later say that they didn't care what they were participating in, but they won't be able to say they didn't know.
If you do not value human generated art because there is other stuff, then I can understand why what would upset you.
But if you do, then I think maybe we are all good.
Maybe the bigger conversation is how do we preserve space for each other's different forms of creative expression. Like as a community we agree to not poach each other's work and are courteous about it if we do misstep e.g. when someone was borrowing IC song lyrics for the sora /soundtracks thread, the original artist spoke up and said don't use my stuff and that was that. Would there be a way to formalize this courtesy?
Like cyberpunk was a warning. Fight the future.
If someone was producing work that was the product of a ethically-sourced dataset that compensated its creators fairly, then I might not see the result as art but it wouldn't be unethical.
You would have us, as a community, ban the use of AI generated content in our game, on the principle that there are probably some AI tools out there which were to your individual standards, unethically made. And because we enjoy cyberpunk fiction.
In your view, is there any other healthy way forward for our community on this topic? Because I don't get the sense that we're all there with you. Even if it was enforceable.
Sindome is, in my view, a creative writing platform. Why would someone expect to be comforted in a creative art venue for their use of tools and services that are actively exploiting and destroying that art form for tech giant profit? It's like someone asking conservationists how best to clear cut their property to get easier access to their waterfront, it may be their right and convenience but they can't expect to be lauded for their efforts.
In my opinion, using AI to generate anything to be used in game is like giving the finger to anyone who has ever spent more than a few minutes using their creative energy in the game. And furthermore if it's being used to write historys, flaunts close to rulebreaking, considering the fact that the history system is the closest thing we have to a vetting system to ensure people who are coming to the game can A. think creatively and B. Aren't there to troll the game and ruin the immersive RP this game offers.
Sometimes when I was starting a new story and I could not get it going, I would sit in front of the fire and squeeze the peel of the little oranges into the edge of the flame and watch the sputter of blue that they made. I would stand and look out over the roofs of Paris and think, “Do not worry. You have always written before and you will write now. All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence that you know.” So finally I would write one true sentence, and then go on from there. It was easy then because there was always one true sentence that I knew or had seen or had heard someone say. If I started to write elaborately, or like someone introducing or presenting something, I found that I could cut that scroll-work or ornament out and throw it away and start with the first true simple declarative sentence I had written.
I know some here seem to hate the use of 'AI' tools. That's fair. Don't use them. Stand tall with your self written stuff and, maybe, inspire others. Maybe even encourage others to try it too. In a friendly way.
Zero interest in a ban on 'AI' content though. Is some want to use it and it fits theme, cool. Fine by me. I'm not going to like down on you or criticize you. Just don't break the game rules.
Add far as the OOC ethics of it goes, that's a complicated topic. Full of personal bias and opinion on both sides. A very interesting topic. Not really interested in trying to force the game to take a stance on it though.
Also… I'm not super creative. I'm not a great writer. Guess what? I've been allowed to play here for over a decade. Before these 'AIs' were sophisticated enough to become a serious point of contention. It's never been a requirement to play here.
I've also played the game with plenty of people for whom English is a second language. Sometimes you can see this very clearly in their directions and poses. Maybe they are creative as hell but can't express it because of the language barrier. They have all been welcomed to and I never felt the need to look down on their poor English prose.
I do think that most here have become more creative and better write as they played. But I didn't think it's been because they were forced to. I think most just saw stuff others did they thought was cool and strove to do similar.
Nobody barred the use of translation software, grammar checkers or spell checkers. Nobody got booted for borrowing from established cyberpunk media as long as they followed the rules.
That's why I've been tempted to use AI for clothing descriptions instead of putting in heaps of research, but in the end - I've never used AI for stuff in Sindome. Maybe for character art? I can't remember. Most of the time I hired people or asked a friend.
I am just not a fan of thinking that a certain level of creativity and English language skills needs to be enforced. Or that everyone needs to do things the same way.
Follow the rules and play as you like best. Grow in the directions that excite you most. Have fun!
Of the hundreds of objects I've written, my favourite has a three word description. Brevity is elegance. Brevity is understanding. There is not need to take a 25 word prompt and spin it off into some 500 word confusion, it's just obscuring the vision.
Human writers might get overwhelmed by writing 3 tailoring projects a week, and now it might be normalized that they will compete against something producing 300? A television program might take months to write for a few episodes, requiring hundreds of hours of player work, will it be normalized that this can be done in minutes, or seconds?
This is a problem and if players don't see it then maybe it's already too late. Not everyone in the game needs to be a creative writer necessarily but those that are are the backbone of the game's storytelling and without them everything with wither and die.
To me I think it evens the playing field for those of us who aren't talented to play those types of characters and still contribute good content for other people to enjoy.
I think it should be allowed since we're roleplaying characters not our own talents and if it objectively meets an acceptable standard of quality then subjectively I think it is good for everyone, no matter what the source is in my opinion.
I am unsure if making things more wordy is the goal of players who choose to use AI generated content though. Those who do use AI generated content, what do you use it for?
I have used it to try and make character art before. I have yet to ask it to write anything for me and am unlikely to. I am too lazy. As 0x1mm suggested, the effort required to write a prompt takes me more or less the same effort it takes me to write some basic text myself and I'm not willing to put in the extra effort of involving another tool and massaging the results.
I could see using it for plot ideas maybe. Or name generation. I suck at generating names. If I ever cared to play a singer/songwriter character I could see using it to make songs but would probably adjust to my taste after.
I do think that there are some who dislike this though and might avoid RPing with your character if they think you are doing this? Not sure if I understood that part of the thread right though.
I've used it to try and turn some of my writing into more concise paragraphs/wording. And sometimes as an editor.
There's no magic to it, it's reading and writing, writing, writing, when it's good or bad, and reading more and picking up things you read and trying them yourself, and writing more. When I started playing my writing was very clunky because I'd been reading and writing nothing but academic junk for a decade, I had to re-learn to be interested in fiction and re-learn read fiction. I had read Pattern Recognition when I was younger and it had changed my life so I thought I understood William Gibson and the genre but I didn't really, so I read everything he wrote. I read Ursula Le Guin, I read Cormac McCarthy, and Elmore Leonard and George Higgins, I read Octavia Butler and Pat Cardigan. Becky Chambers and Ann Leckie and Arkady Martine and Margaret Killjoy.
I also read a lot of trash! I have a gigantic collection of absolute junk including having reading The Southern Vampire Mysteries about 50 times which are easily the worst written books I couldn't put down. Skill really has nothing to do with it! I did a lot of writing because I was impressed by other players, I learned how to pose, I started to try to push the boundaries of what could be communicated through descriptions, what type of language and allusion and author voice that could talk to the other player about one thing while our characters did something else entirely. There was no talent involved, it was just trying it and trying to do more and sticking with what I liked and discarding the rest.
That also does not stop us from loving to do so, despite the impossible to get through ceiling, and why I will speak on behalf of those, praise Anor for the type of assistive technology AI provides.
Going forward, keep in mind that I'm referring to those that rely too much or entirely on AI. There are ways to use AI as a springboard for ideas, to tweak work you've already done, to -help- you create, etc. I don't really have an issue with that so much as with those that use it exclusively and wholly to create works with minimal or no human input.
The three big issues I see with AI are:
1. It's not your creativity if you're relying on it entirely to produce material. I don't hire a tailor so that a computer can write up my clothes. If I wanted that, I'd slot a skillsoft and do it myself and bypass RP altogether. I spread tailor work around when I need it because I -want- a variety of writing styles and creative works in my clothes. Outside of SD, I play single-player video games almost exclusively. I don't come here to play with a machine. I'm here to play with you.
2. You're killing your critical thinking and learning processes by letting a machine do all of your creative work for you. Automation is great in some things. When Henry Ford perfected the assembly line, he raised wages and lowered weekly man hours at his plants. He was a p.o.s. in other ways but his innovations in automation made life easier for people. The problem with AI is that it doesn't just automate labor. It automates thinking and learning processes. Your thinking and learning processes. Stop crippling yourself, because it affects your real life too. We have enough problems with degradation of critical thinking, attention span, and personal ability in the digital age. You aren't doing yourself any favors relying on AI.
3. There -are- ethical questions to consider in line with what 0x1mm is talking about, and they extend into the game. Is it really fair that a player who creates their own works puts in hours of effort to give somebody what they want while someone else uses AI to do it in thirty seconds? I've played a tailor/musician. Creative roles are the single most time consuming profession I've played in this game. Players that write their own work earn every bit of what they charge, and it is, frankly, disheartening to learn there are players out there undermining that effort by relying on AI. Unfortunately, I also can't help but think people are using it as a cash cow to rake in quick, easy flash. If you're gaming customers by using AI to get easy flash at the expense of players that put the work in? I'd say you're cheating, plain and simple.
Thems my thoughts.
I started writing and performing my own music in my late teens and continue to do so to this day as a hobby. In the last few years, I've tried my hand at SEO content creation as a freelance writer for manufacturing companies. This year I'm trying to write a piece of literary journalism.
I was not very good at first any of these things at first (I'm still not good at literary journalism. I'm very uncomfortable and awkward interviewing people).
I'm 39 next month. I've been writing in various forms for 25 years. I still don't think I'm all that great, but I do know for a fact that I would never have gotten to the level I'm at if I'd relied on AI to do it for me the whole way.
My point from this is that I often resisted the urge to ask people around me for ideas on words to rhyme on for poetry, et cetera, 'cause I wanted to say this was 100% my work. That likely helped me improve.
Sometimes these days I've given up a bit and go to rhymezone to find things that rhyme on the words I use, and sometimes I use AI for name ideas, but I try not to rely on it too much as it won't help me improve. It can be really good for ideas though.
I do most of my genAI work for SD through a gpt that I've trained on old saved logs or notes. I will sometimes take my @notes from the last couple years and throw them into the character GPT's knowledge. I then write prompts to this whenever I want to bias check my gut instinct. Have been using this a lot more lately to create IC lore data dumps. Why not go off memory? I definitely could. And it would be good for me to roleplay the inherent bias of time and memory and personal feelings. I could make everything my character writes IC. Be a slur campaign against players characters who aren't here to defend themselves. But….I choose to not do that to us. I choose to use tools that can counter my own human biases. Just as I adjust the tool's output to make it my own. A balance
What is your argument here? That true creative attribution is ableism? By all means allow me to lecture you then for trying to sanewash illegal corporate sacking of humanity's cultural inheritance for profit with claims that there was no other choice because, what, it's hard for some people to create art? It's hard for everyone to create art. If you are interested in the ethics of universal accessibility then please have some class solidarity for the ethics of our collective rights to our own artistic creations and efforts.
OpenAI and Meta and everyone else trained these systems on the collective works of humanity which they didn't own and now are selling them for profit. They stole from the abled and disabled equally. That it makes anyone's life more convenient doesn't make it ethical consumption. The option for ethical LLM data sets is right there, they just chose not to in order to make it a fait accompli and front run regulations.
This board used to be filled with artwork made by players or commissioned from players or by players representing artists who would get callouts. Jeannisti, Manywater, Supermarket, Varolokkur, Seurat, Shunbun, and so many others doing their own doodles, those art threads were one of the best parts of the community and they practically vanished overnight because of automated generation taking over everything.
The idea of the same thing happening to the game itself, where player-created works become a rare novelty or distant memory, is just a very sad idea to me and now feels inevitable.
I suppose it really comes down to game concerns about scale and production. "AI" Art almost eliminated the public demand for visual artists because an algorithm could produce ten million or a hundred million or a hundred billion outputs in the time it took an artist to paint. Assuming they were using ethical tools would I be bothered by a player creating something with those tools, a song, or a painting, or clothing so they could have some specific vision represented? Not really. Am I bothered by the idea of players creating hundreds or thousands of things with these tools in the time it would take my heart to beat once? Yes.
I hate to reduce creative efforts in the game to competitive terms, but in competitive terms isn't this just an inevitable race to the bottom where LLM prose can just wildly out compete everyone else until there is not even a point in trying to be a light in the generative fog?
By Lena
I use genAI to save me time and keep me to IC timelines when my creative brain hasn't been productive. When I spend all day thinking about and life, I don't always make time to plan out the next 3 events at my IC workplace. Getting something into the page is a place to deviate from.
I think this is a valid point. If I'm working several long days (13-18 hours sometimes), I may want to hop on and decompress, but my brain is going to be completely shot from problem solving. While I would personally prefer to find an inspirational piece of music or put on a theme-appropriate show/movie to get me back into the spin of things... sometimes we have responsibilities in game that need to be tended to. I don't know that I'm going to dogmatically attack someone for using AI as a crutch to help them get through rough spots.
I do think it's an entirely different thing if you're just using AI to effectively discard the creative aspect of the game so that you can focus on mechanical elements.
Disabled players have for years raised issues with the game as far as how Johnny forbids any modification or tools beyond the stock webclient whatsoever, no colour switches, no text substitution, no aliases, nothing beyond what is in @macros and @access, but now the idea is that having to write things is too big an ask of players and should be allowed to be automated?
Not meeting that promise? That's RP. That's RP that by using AI to ensure doesn't happen, won't ever happen and protects you from RP consequences. You can't tarnish your reputation and timeliness when you always have a backup writing for you.
But does it not strike anyone as slightly hypocritical or incoherent that the game strictly forbids any gameplay automation or modification outside of what the stock client allows for, but has nothing at all to say about creative automation?Disabled players have for years raised issues with the game as far as how Johnny forbids any modification or tools beyond the stock webclient whatsoever, no colour switches, no text substitution, no aliases, nothing beyond what is in @macros and @access, but now the idea is that having to write things is too big an ask of players and should be allowed to be automated?
I don't think they're comparable issues, personally. You have the perspective of diluting the intended/designed experience for the game, but on the other hand, you have… bots, and scripts that react to things with perfectly timed precision that could literally be the deciding factor in another player having to roll a new character. You could argue that some players read or type faster than others. Maybe have all ten digits where someone else only has 7, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
I was told that using fucking text editor outside of game was tantamount to game mechanics circumvention, and altering color codes was a bannable offence, but we're somehow now okay with players churning out television shows and music from paid services because writing them is too demanding?
Make it make sense to me, because it doesn't right now.
To Quotient's point, that's kind of the thing I'm referring to as bad practice imo. When I played a tailor, I got jobs partially on a reputation that I built for timeliness. People knew my character had no more than a 3-day turnover on any job. It was an advertised part of the business.Not meeting that promise? That's RP. That's RP that by using AI to ensure doesn't happen, won't ever happen and protects you from RP consequences. You can't tarnish your reputation and timeliness when you always have a backup writing for you.
Fair point. One I didn't consider, honestly, but should have given how many times I've chalked up IC consequences to unavailability as being a part of RP. That said, can we also agree that being subject to IC dismissal and outright attacks on a regular basis simply because you have IRL responsibilities, when you are just trying to enjoy a game with the time you have available, is a shitty experience that we could empathize with more?
I kinda see both points honestly. I would rather not all creatives in the game used AI tools. You don't have to play a creative character. But if someone posts something AI made once in a while I won't throw a fit about it. Though again, I highly doubt AI will ever wholly replace everything in a game that's all about writing.
Did you not notice the amount of creative output from characters had massively swelled in the last year? That there were twice as many tailors and artists and like four times as many musical performers and that none of them were burning out as they had been previously? Creative characters burning out in weeks from the effort they put in but now tons of characters are ticking along with no issue. Because I noticed.
I roughly estimated that half of all the creative output of the game when it came to static work (ie. television, music, IC writing, paintings and clothes) was now automated generation, but after reading this thread and seeing how accepting and enthusiastic players are about it, I'd say it's probably closer to 75%.
It only need to hit a critical mass where a player feels they have no hope of being seen or heard or that their work will be written off as presumptively AI generated and they will simply stop bothering, and in my opinion there is a lot of prior evidence to show that a game with Sindome's mechanics and theme will not survive as a roleplaying game without a strong creative creator backbone to it.
But I could be wrong. I don't really notice when stuff's AI generated, I just notice when stuff's well written or not.
I do have a history of falling through. That's on me. And regardless of the reason, whether IRL or IC, I think those failures should be allowed to happen. They should have the chance to be observed and responded to.
@Veleth I rarely use text editors. I expect I'm one of relatively few that does just about everything in the client chat box. From writing histories to clothes descs, e-note files, music scripts, etc. Nearly all of it. In the client chat box. If I have to stop to respond to something else, I ctrl+c and hold it there until I can continue.
There are one or two exceptions that I have templates for, so I fill it in and copy/paste from Word.
@0x1mm It looks like Baudrillard wins.
It's gotten so much worse. Reading GPT descriptions makes me want to just… not? It's to a point where people seem to be putting in "write me a description and make it super cool and mysterious" and then they'll generate shitty AI art of their character to go alongside it.
It's exhausting trying to log into the game and read the same prose used in AI clothing across characters. I'd almost give anything for shitty grammar mistakes and bad writing, at least then I know it might be human. (Unless you wanted to generate it that way, I guess.) Like, really, is it too much to ask that you sit and be creative, even if it's "bad"? I'm not a terribly strong writer myself but it's something you CAN improve.
Pick up a book, listen to an audio book, just practice your writing. Write descriptively until you find something you like and then go from there.
I really shouldn't have been surprised that so many people would embrace their full conversation to NPC existence, not creating prose but instead just filling volume, but it's made me feel a bit better about the concept of actual fully generative NPCs because at least they would be less compulsively horny and would be more likely to play to theme.
My avatars were cartoonishly pornified, while my male colleagues got to be astronauts, explorers, and inventors.When I tried the new viral AI avatar app Lensa, I was hoping to get results similar to some of my colleagues at MIT Technology Review. The digital retouching app was first launched in 2018 but has recently become wildly popular thanks to the addition of Magic Avatars, an AI-powered feature which generates digital portraits of people based on their selfies.
But while Lensa generated realistic yet flattering avatars for them—think astronauts, fierce warriors, and cool cover photos for electronic music albums— I got tons of nudes. Out of 100 avatars I generated, 16 were topless, and in another 14 it had put me in extremely skimpy clothes and overtly sexualized poses.
I have Asian heritage, and that seems to be the only thing the AI model picked up on from my selfies. I got images of generic Asian women clearly modeled on anime or video-game characters. Or most likely porn, considering the sizable chunk of my avatars that were nude or showed a lot of skin. A couple of my avatars appeared to be crying. My white female colleague got significantly fewer sexualized images, with only a couple of nudes and hints of cleavage. Another colleague with Chinese heritage got results similar to mine: reams and reams of pornified avatars.
That's from 2022. The pervased flood of AI "art" of virtual sex objects, pink braces and all, has continued to become even worse since. Not that Pinterest was ever a bastion of quality content but it's something like ninety percent generative now and largely useless. Watching these massive compute investments tank as techbros struggle to find a real market will I guess be some slight silver lining as the world burns to ash.
The idea was not to see those depictions as an ideal to strive towards but something to be resisted or torn down, but then that is a problem that a lot of satirical genres struggle with (ex. fascists loving Warhammer 40,000 to the point that even Games Workshop had to denounce them).
While I don't agree with Emily's post and agree with the general points Ox1mm is making, I don't think it helps the boards to resort to trolling responses and snarky one liners. We can disagree with each other while having genuine conversations and different ideas.
https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/open-discussion/anything-really/generative-ai-and-sindome-1362/
We will update the @rules shortly to reflect our position.
If you can't be bothered to spend the time to create your own character, what are you even here for?
Using LLMs for ideas and inspiration is fine. Just execute said inspiration yourself.
The only cure for this problem is ostracism.
So you OOCly blackball people based on what you think is AI work? Get a grip on life.
It takes a special type of person to use an unfiltered LLM-based description in one of the primary ways people learn things about your character. It speaks volumes about the amount of effort you're willing to sink into play: practically none. If you can't be bothered hand-tailoring one of the major impressions for a character that might potentially spend hundreds of hours interacting with mine, why should I bother with you?
Someone with poor self-written prose is at least trying and few people will begrudge them for that.
I came here to experience collaborative storytelling with other real human beings who also enjoy collaborative storytelling and exploring a medium through written text.
I think it is only fair that people not buying in to the medium properly should also not be bought into themselves.
I encourage you to hand-screw some furniture together. With only your hands, of course. After all, tools are apparently a sign of laziness.
However, if I rock up to your living room and your couch is a tumorous abomination of blisteringly mediocre sterile prose with lumpy bits of emotion and random thought-insertion, I know exactly what and where the tool is.
(Edited by Slither at 5:28 pm on 5/18/2025)
The ESL thing is at the very least plausible, but it seems unlikely, at least from my experiences with other international roleplayers in the past in other settings (tabletops, MUSH, etc). I will concede that there is some risk of misclassification there.
If someone who was using an LLM for perfectly reasonable reasons (which they are under no expectation of telling you or anyone else about) were to read this thread, I think it would be reasonable of them to be pissed off and feel not only called out unfairly, but unwelcome in this game. Which, to be clear, is not the case.
You can choose who you RP with and don't RP (for the most part) on Sindome, but maybe it's best to keep that to yourself, as making blanket generalizations is not making the community a better or more welcoming place (which I would like to believe was your intention in your responses).
